Posted on 02/07/2009 5:48:27 AM PST by BobL
At this point it’s clear that any pretense of fiscal responsibility by our government is over. Not only is spending and debt going through the roof, the long-term goals of this administration (i.e., global warming, locking up land from development, arms reduction/elimination, etc.) almost assure us that we will be Third-World within a decade, and the rest of the world will simply bypass us as our major goals will seeking food and clean water, and hoping that China, Russia, Mexico, and other countries don’t choose to exact revenge on us.
So, that brings us to the S-word, especially here in Texas. I won’t spell out the S-word, since that would probably bring in the soon-to-be formed Internet Goon Squad, so we’ll work around it. But I do think that a serious discussion of the S-word will begin to leave these web pages and move more mainstream, probably within a year , as the effects of the debt start to really to strangle people. After all, the main reason to hold together is that a larger country is generally able to project more power on the world stage and look after common interests. Since we seem to be walking away from having any military power, don’t seem to have any common interests anymore (i.e., red state, blue state divide), and are putting in place measures to assure that we never recover (i.e., Global Warming, National Health Care), the main drawbacks of breaking apart start to go away, and the benefits of breaking apart start to make more and more sense.
So, how would we here in Texas structure things without the “help” of Washington, DC? Note, I’ve already been promised by two people that Oklahoma will join us. I also think that we have a good shot at Arkansas and Louisiana, and if we get them, then Mississippi and Alabama, and, maybe, finally, North Florida would fall into place. In other words, we’d be pretty a big country, able to take care of ourselves.
My first thoughts are cultural…but then much more:
1) We could seal off our southern border, once and for all.
2) We can real employee verification for legal status.
3) English as the Official Language
4) Real welfare reform (or elimination…go to a church if you need help)
5) We could by trucks, light bulbs, toilets that flush, washing machines that clean, and SUVs again (yes, they will still be built for China).
6) We could buy those vehicles without air bags and with a much less costly (but still very effective) emission control system.
7) We could build and expand refineries, and burn coal…as much as necessary
8) We could finally reform public schools, by getting rid of tenure, teachers unions, calculators, and most computers. In other words do what has worked in the past (and hopefully have Dr. Sowell as the Education Secretary…if we have one)
9) Children could have a moment of silence without some ACLU guy screaming
10) We could handle abortion as we wish (rather than having 9 dead [or almost dead] judges dictate to us). 11) We could drill off-shore.
12) We could build as many nukes as we need or want, simply by going to France and either having them manage the task or license their (flawless) technology to us. We could then export our excess power (particularly wind power) either north or south.
13) We could eliminate labor unions and become competitive with the rest of the world. Sounds drastic, but their time has passed, and labor will have plenty of means of redress.
14) We could straighten our legal system, both criminal and civil. No more last minute appeals to federal court to stop executions, no more predatory lawsuits.
15) Needless to say, endangered species would be on their own…we are not going to sink our economy or destroy people’s lives to save something that doesn’t deserve to survive in the first place.
16) No more drawn out processes to block economic growth. There will be some processes, like streamlined environmental reviews, but those the permitting process will have to be done in something like a year (at most) – with no room for judicial interference.
17) No more threats from Washington to force seat belts or rebrand social drinkers as drunk drivers, due to a bunch of guilt-ridden loud-mouthed women (and no, I’ve ALWAYS worn my seat belt, long before it was required, and yes, we do need drunk driving laws…but not at 2 beers – and no, I never had a DUI).
18) End (to the extent possible) the intrusion of Big Brother into our society. One way is to pay for roads with the gas tax. If the tax is not high enough, then raise it. But don’t stick someone in a database every time they drive out to get milk. Same for “Smart (electric) Meters”…you’ll be hearing about just what they are capable of soon enough.
19) No more anchor babies.
20) Free market for health care (or at least much less restricted – such as the ability to buy insurance that doesn’t cover substance abuse…for those of us who don’t plan to abuse substances)
These are a few. Essentially, we could go back to where we were just several decades ago. We will still have environmental laws…cars will have to be clean, but not spotless, and definitely not electric. We will be able to raise kids as we wish and say Merry Christmas again. We will be able to tell a women they look good at work and not be sued. Jesse Jackson’s (and soon Eric Holder’s) extortion tactics will not work here. Same to ACORN and the Hispanic revolutionary bunch.
The drawbacks…just about everyone can be countered. I’ll list a few:
1. The benefit of common defense doesn’t help when we don’t have a defense in the first place and have withdrawn as a superpower – due to being broke, if no other reason.
2. The benefit of a large, open, market doesn’t help when the rest of the market is a total basket case, more interested in looking like Zimbabwe and saving the world from Global Warming.
3. The idea of trying to fix the system from within, which would be ideal, is not possible when you have a Supreme Court making law…cannot be done. The Constitution is non-functional.
4. The possibility that Washington will resist…only legitimate drawback.
Finally, how would the rest of the country react? Hard to tell. At first they will not believe we are serious, since it’s been a long time before there was this type of move. Next, there will be a large faction that will be thrilled to have us bible-thumpers (and the Bush’s) out of their country, so that they can finish their work in making their territory some type of “workers’ paradise”. Finally, there will be a segment that will figure out that we will have quite a stranglehold of the remaining territory, given our chemical, oil, and refining capability, and then especially if we hold the mouth of the Mississippi River, and may actually want to fight. Which faction wins…hard to tell, only one way to find out.
As to our share of the debt (which will be about $1.5T by then), easy – we forego our share of the Social Security Trust Fund and take care of our seniors without Washington’s help. It should be about a wash. If they don’t like that idea, then maybe we take the debt, and simply default on it – not a great way to start, but certainly better than trying to pay it down.
So, what do you guys think? I’m not really interested in the feasibility of the idea, but more the mechanics of it and what outcome could be. Since, if the outcome can be made to work, the feasibility will improve as Washington realizes we mean business. And keep in mind, I’m just trying to get ahead of the curve here…this discussion will begin soon, because of our debt, if nothing else.
Ping
I think that Alaska gets an exception and can join, even though not contiguous. You guys have WAY too many resources to ignore...and needless to say, the Sierra Club will not be welcome in our new society.
As for you list, I'll give you my opinion on each.
1) We could seal off our southern border, once and for all.
I personally think the issue is overblown, but a secure border is never a bad thing.
2) We can real employee verification for legal status.
Again no real problem, but it won't be free, and I'd like to know how much it's going cost and who's going to pay for it.
3) English as the Official Language
Little more than jingoism or worse. The Acadme France` is laughable at the lengths it goes through to keep French the official language of France.
4) Real welfare reform (or elimination…go to a church if you need help)
If it would work, it's not a bad idea. The problem is that if it doesn't work, which I suspect it wouldn't, your population will once again be screaming for government to do something. What most fail to understand about this issue is that the general public will only tolerate seeing so many impoverished children, bums in the street, and so much poverty driven street crime before they'll demand that government do something.
5) We could by trucks, light bulbs, toilets that flush, washing machines that clean, and SUVs again (yes, they will still be built for China).
We can buy trucks and SUVs right now. I drive an SUV myself. My neighbor just bought a new dualie.
6) We could buy those vehicles without air bags and with a much less costly (but still very effective) emission control system.
The airbag issue resonates with whom exactly? Is there really enough pent up frustrations over the vaunted airbag issue to gain any political ground? I think not.
7) We could build and expand refineries, and burn coal…as much as necessary
Not a good idea. Nuclear is a much better option.
8) We could finally reform public schools, by getting rid of tenure, teachers unions, calculators, and most computers. In other words do what has worked in the past (and hopefully have Dr. Sowell as the Education Secretary…if we have one)
No, no, and simply no. Even as homeschoolers, computers have been a central part of our curriculum. Education needs to look forward and embrace technology, not emulate third world countries who are 70 years behind us.
9) Children could have a moment of silence without some ACLU guy screaming
Our first point of total agreement.
10) We could handle abortion as we wish (rather than having 9 dead [or almost dead] judges dictate to us).
Not really. You'd just trade one set of judges for another. It might have favorable results, it might not.
11) We could drill off-shore.
Two points of total agreement.
12) We could build as many nukes as we need or want, simply by going to France and either having them manage the task or license their (flawless) technology to us. We could then export our excess power (particularly wind power) either north or south.
Three points.
13) We could eliminate labor unions and become competitive with the rest of the world. Sounds drastic, but their time has passed, and labor will have plenty of means of redress.
No. You have the unalienable right to associate freely, which the Founders found important enough to place in the first amendment. If you want to join together with 3 of your coworkers, and bargain with your employer as a trio, it's your right and government has no right to intervene.
14) We could straighten our legal system, both criminal and civil. No more last minute appeals to federal court to stop executions, no more predatory lawsuits.
This might be a good thing.
15) Needless to say, endangered species would be on their own…we are not going to sink our economy or destroy people’s lives to save something that doesn’t deserve to survive in the first place.
Good luck finding popular support on that one. I know you lost me for certain.
16) No more drawn out processes to block economic growth. There will be some processes, like streamlined environmental reviews, but those the permitting process will have to be done in something like a year (at most) – with no room for judicial interference.
Provided your streamlined processes work, it sounds good to me.
17) No more threats from Washington to force seat belts or rebrand social drinkers as drunk drivers, due to a bunch of guilt-ridden loud-mouthed women (and no, I’ve ALWAYS worn my seat belt, long before it was required, and yes, we do need drunk driving laws…but not at 2 beers – and no, I never had a DUI).
Sounds good to me.
18) End (to the extent possible) the intrusion of Big Brother into our society. One way is to pay for roads with the gas tax. If the tax is not high enough, then raise it. But don’t stick someone in a database every time they drive out to get milk. Same for “Smart (electric) Meters”…you’ll be hearing about just what they are capable of soon enough.
There isn't enough detail to be sure, but on the surface it just looks like you want to trade one devil for another.
19) No more anchor babies.
Without knowing your criteria for citizenship, I can't say whether I agree or disagree.
20) Free market for health care (or at least much less restricted – such as the ability to buy insurance that doesn’t cover substance abuse…for those of us who don’t plan to abuse substances)
Don't be surprised if your premiums don't move much.
We have large quantities of tar and feathers stashed at at least 5 secret locations across the state!
Molon Labe!
“Texas is not seceding my friend, nor do a significant number of Texans want to secede.”
On that...completely agree, me included. TODAY.
But just wait until this country’s debt rating tanks and we have hyperinflation. That will take maybe a year.
Two years from now, you will not recognize this country...enjoy everything we have now, it’s sad, but it’s just like Sarajevo just before the shooting started. A great place to live, on OLYMPIC CITY nonetheless.
Keep up the optimism, you’ll need it, and you’ll find that it’s not infinite.
You're dreaming here. I can promise you'd bore sorely disappointed when it became evident just how few people actually took care of their parents. As for the 4900 years of recorded history, for the most part the number of folks who actually lived to become dependent elderly was a fraction of what it is today. Death quickly followed the end of productivity for the vast majority of earths population for almost all of recorded history. Modern medicine has forever changed that picture.
We have these programs, because family and church failed. The New Deal resonated with the public when it was first conceived because the voluntary and charitable solutions were already failing. It’s a political fact in any system that when private solutions fail, the people will indeed demand that government step in. It’s played out countless times in countless nations.
“but what are we going to do about all the federally-owned land in those states?”
Sell it over a 40 year period. Use the proceeds to support SS recepients, while gradually phasing out all government subsidies to individuals. This solves the SS problem. Plus not living under the federal reserve inflationary money machine will stabilze the currency and the cost of living - I assume a new currency would be established.
As for you list, I’ll give you my opinion on each.
—Thanks for the comments, they weren’t as bad as I expected.
1) We could seal off our southern border, once and for all.
I personally think the issue is overblown, but a secure border is never a bad thing.
—agree here.
2) We can real employee verification for legal status.
Again no real problem, but it won’t be free, and I’d like to know how much it’s going cost and who’s going to pay for it.
—next to nothing, compared to health costs and education costs. No jobs, they leave. The cost argument is a ruse used by the liberals to deflect the argument.
3) English as the Official Language
Little more than jingoism or worse. The Acadme France` is laughable at the lengths it goes through to keep French the official language of France.
—We’re not France and look at what Canada has had to deal with trying to have two official languages (i.e. almost daily threats to pull apart). THERE IS NOTHING BENEFICIAL TO HAVING MULTIPLE LANGUAGES IN A SOCIETY.
4) Real welfare reform (or elimination…go to a church if you need help)
If it would work, it’s not a bad idea. The problem is that if it doesn’t work, which I suspect it wouldn’t, your population will once again be screaming for government to do something. What most fail to understand about this issue is that the general public will only tolerate seeing so many impoverished children, bums in the street, and so much poverty driven street crime before they’ll demand that government do something.
—We did pretty darn good without welfare for almost 2 centuries - when we were much poorer. What caused the societal guilt was closing down the institutions and throwing these people into the street. Hopefully that will be done away with.
5) We could by trucks, light bulbs, toilets that flush, washing machines that clean, and SUVs again (yes, they will still be built for China).
We can buy trucks and SUVs right now. I drive an SUV myself. My neighbor just bought a new dualie.
—Smart neighbor, I’m thinking the same thing, and you might also. They are cheap and easy to get. TODAY. Tomorrow...if they don’t meet 39 MPG, they will either not be available or will cost double (or more) of what they cost now (in relative terms). These trucks are ruining the planet...so you CANNOT have one. You’ll be lucky to anything worthwhile starting in about 3 years.
6) We could buy those vehicles without air bags and with a much less costly (but still very effective) emission control system.
The airbag issue resonates with whom exactly? Is there really enough pent up frustrations over the vaunted airbag issue to gain any political ground? I think not.
—It resonates the parents of decapitated kids (one of whom I know...his grandparents didn’t know how to use a child seat...but I guess the kid deserved it). It’s also a total waste of money when seat belts are just fine, the law was pushed on emotion and costs at least $1000 per car...i.e., cars could be cheaper without them. And they are only one example of going overboard.
7) We could build and expand refineries, and burn coal…as much as necessary
Not a good idea. Nuclear is a much better option.
—I get to that. But coal for the short term...and I’m making a point that we can do what we please (and yes, there will still be regulation).
8) We could finally reform public schools, by getting rid of tenure, teachers unions, calculators, and most computers. In other words do what has worked in the past (and hopefully have Dr. Sowell as the Education Secretary…if we have one)
No, no, and simply no. Even as homeschoolers, computers have been a central part of our curriculum. Education needs to look forward and embrace technology, not emulate third world countries who are 70 years behind us.
— If you’re homeschooling and using computers, great. But I’m sorry, kids (mine included) learned to read and do math PERFECTLY FINE without “technology”. Computers are certainly good to have and should be used...but this crap about education improving if the kids had more computers is GARBAGE. And calculators in math classes is SICK.
9) Children could have a moment of silence without some ACLU guy screaming
Our first point of total agreement.
—Finally.
10) We could handle abortion as we wish (rather than having 9 dead [or almost dead] judges dictate to us).
Not really. You’d just trade one set of judges for another. It might have favorable results, it might not.
—I admit that I’m counting on having a country of producers, rather than takers (i.e., a red electorate). If liberals were not on the bench, the crap we have to deal with simply wouldn’t exist.
11) We could drill off-shore.
Two points of total agreement.
12) We could build as many nukes as we need or want, simply by going to France and either having them manage the task or license their (flawless) technology to us. We could then export our excess power (particularly wind power) either north or south.
Three points.
13) We could eliminate labor unions and become competitive with the rest of the world. Sounds drastic, but their time has passed, and labor will have plenty of means of redress.
No. You have the unalienable right to associate freely, which the Founders found important enough to place in the first amendment. If you want to join together with 3 of your coworkers, and bargain with your employer as a trio, it’s your right and government has no right to intervene.
—Tell that to corporations when they get together and conspire. I HATE UNIONS and they have wrecked education and have set time bombs at the city, county, and state levels with their pensions. Maybe a compromise...your trio can demand to be negotiated as a group - as long as the company can dismiss them as a group for doing that.
14) We could straighten our legal system, both criminal and civil. No more last minute appeals to federal court to stop executions, no more predatory lawsuits.
This might be a good thing.
15) Needless to say, endangered species would be on their own…we are not going to sink our economy or destroy people’s lives to save something that doesn’t deserve to survive in the first place.
Good luck finding popular support on that one. I know you lost me for certain.
—Most people are reachable when they understand just what damage this legislation has done to our country (i.e., spotted wrecking the lives of tens of thousands of people in the lumber business). If the government wants to protect a species, then they can purchase the land necessary to do that AT MARKET PRICES, rather than effectively seize it by telling the owner that they cannot touch it.
16) No more drawn out processes to block economic growth. There will be some processes, like streamlined environmental reviews, but those the permitting process will have to be done in something like a year (at most) – with no room for judicial interference.
Provided your streamlined processes work, it sounds good to me.
—Thanks.
17) No more threats from Washington to force seat belts or rebrand social drinkers as drunk drivers, due to a bunch of guilt-ridden loud-mouthed women (and no, I’ve ALWAYS worn my seat belt, long before it was required, and yes, we do need drunk driving laws…but not at 2 beers – and no, I never had a DUI).
Sounds good to me.
18) End (to the extent possible) the intrusion of Big Brother into our society. One way is to pay for roads with the gas tax. If the tax is not high enough, then raise it. But don’t stick someone in a database every time they drive out to get milk. Same for “Smart (electric) Meters”…you’ll be hearing about just what they are capable of soon enough.
There isn’t enough detail to be sure, but on the surface it just looks like you want to trade one devil for another.
—Could be, this is more of a peeve of mine. I just don’t like being tracked. For example, just by monitoring someone’s smart meter you can pretty much figure out what they’re doing and whether they’re home.
19) No more anchor babies.
Without knowing your criteria for citizenship, I can’t say whether I agree or disagree.
—Something to the effect that your parents need to be citizens (or certainly at least one of them).
20) Free market for health care (or at least much less restricted – such as the ability to buy insurance that doesn’t cover substance abuse…for those of us who don’t plan to abuse substances)
Don’t be surprised if your premiums don’t move much.
—I tend to agree...but there is a lot of unnecessary cost, like keep lawyers employed.
If that’s what you think, then you’re happy with socialism. What are you doing on a conservative site?
“You’re dreaming here. I can promise you’d bore sorely disappointed when it became evident just how few people actually took care of their parents.”
I guess maybe I’m the exception then. If my parents needed me to take care of them in need, I would be right there. If they wanted me to spring for a Winnebego or a winter house in Florida, they can get lost (although Social Security will spring for that).
Yes - there are a lot more old people...and a lot few children for each of them. That’s why you still have to have a public backstop to take care of them. But there are also a LOT of people who could take care of their parents, but don’t because the state does that for them.
if Michigan or Vermont tries to secede, they will be crushed. They will not be allowed to get away from our Constitutional Republic.
California will be crushed, too. But i doubt they would try it.
The Obama administration: showing the American people every day why there needs to be a GOP House takeover in ‘10. Twenty-one months and counting.
We are in agreement, however the challenge would be making sure there are no gaps in the switch-over.
Veterans and any federal workers would also be a challenge. They draw pensions and health care benefits from the fed. I doubt they would still be able to collect in such a scenario.
But think of what else a CSA II could do:
Biggest lesson of American history is that freedom has to be taught to each and every generation. Last November, 54% voted to surrender.
Oh please. Understanding the political reality of the situation in no way makes me in favor of socialism. Socialism requires a catalyst. No socialist country ever became so because the people were tired of prosperity. Socialism is ALWAYS a misguided and desperate attempt by a desperate people to fix real problems.
Oh I hear you. I kept my mother at home until the end of her life. It was a lot of work, but in my estimation, I owed her that and more.
However, I could afford it. To be frank, I don’t think your typical family earning at or below the median income can afford it. Too many families of 4 cramped into tiny 3 bedroom apartments as it is.
Move on to DU. This is a conservative site.
“However, I could afford it. To be frank, I don’t think your typical family earning at or below the median income can afford it. Too many families of 4 cramped into tiny 3 bedroom apartments as it is.”
Maybe, maybe not. Thanks to this housing bubble we have MASSIVE QUANTITIES of fancy houses with lots of bedrooms (i.e., this isn’t the 1930s).
In any case, while taking care of old people is certainly a boatload of work (and I admire you for that), it is not very expensive...if you don’t have to worry about medical costs.
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