Posted on 12/14/2008 7:10:22 PM PST by Swordmaker
It is on now... Discovery Channel. 7:00PM Pacific, 10:00PM Eastern.
The gospel accounts just don’t say what you claim, and I pointed that out to you. But they are either going to say what you want them to or I’m arguing. So be it.
Nor do any of the 73 books of the Bible.
Scripture superior to tradition.
Christ's warning against the traditions of men is well quoted here. This is why I reject the traditions of men like Luther, Cauvin, Zwingli, Smith, Hubbard, et al.
I'll go to my grave rejecting lies like sola Scriptura, sola fide, TULIP, the Book of Mormon, OT Levels, etc.
Don’t go to your grave yet, you still have lots of posts left in you!
Maybe a few here and there.
Physician Tells of Eucharistic Miracle of LancianoEdoardo Linoli Verified Authenticity of the Phenomenon
ROME, MAY 5, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Dr. Edoardo Linoli says he held real cardiac tissue in his hands, when some years ago he analyzed the relics of the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano, Italy.
The phenomenon dates back to the eighth century. A Basilian monk, who had doubts about the real presence of Christ in the sacred species, was offering Mass, in a church dedicated to St. Legontian in the town of Lanciano.
When he pronounced the words of the consecration, the host was miraculously changed into physical flesh and the wine into physical blood.
Later the blood coagulated and the flesh remained the same. These relics were kept in the cathedral.
Linoli, a professor of anatomy and pathological histology, and of chemistry and clinical microscopy, and former head of the Laboratory of Pathological Anatomy at the Hospital of Arezzo, is the only doctor who has analyzed the relics of the miracle of Lanciano. His findings have stirred interest in the scientific world.
At the initiative of Archbishop Pacifico Perantoni of Lanciano, and of the provincial minister of the Franciscan Conventuals of Abruzzo, and with authorization from Rome, in November 1970 the Franciscans of Lanciano decided to have the relics examined scientifically.
Linoli was entrusted with the study. He was assisted by Dr. Ruggero Bertelli, retired professor of human anatomy at the University of Siena.
Linoli extracted parts of the relics with great care and then analyzed the remains of "miraculous flesh and blood." He presented his findings on March 4, 1971.
His study confirmed that the flesh and blood were of human origin. The flesh was unequivocally cardiac tissue, and the blood was of type AB.
Consulted by ZENIT, Linoli explained that "as regards the flesh, I had in my hand the endocardium. Therefore, there is no doubt at all that it is cardiac tissue."
In regard to the blood, the scientist emphasized that "the blood group is the same as that of the man of the holy Shroud of Turin, and it is particular because it has the characteristics of a man who was born and lived in the Middle East regions."
"The AB blood group of the inhabitants of the area in fact has a percentage that extends from 0.5% to 1%, while in Palestine and the regions of the Middle East it is 14-15%," Linoli said.
Linoli's analysis revealed no traces of preservatives in the elements, meaning that the blood could not have been extracted from a corpse, because it would have been rapidly altered.
Linoli's report was published in "Quaderni Sclavo di Diagnostica Clinica e di Laboratori" in 1971.
In 1973, the Higher Council of the World Health Organization (WHO) appointed a scientific commission to verify the Italian doctor's conclusions. The work was carried out over 15 months with a total of 500 examinations. The conclusions of all the researches confirmed what had been stated and published in Italy.
The extract of the scientific research of WHO's medical commission was published in New York and Geneva in 1976, confirming science's inability to explain the phenomenon.
Today, Linoli participated in a congress on Eucharistic miracles organized by the Science and Faith master's program of Rome's Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University, in cooperation with the St. Clement I Pope and Martyr Institute, on the occasion of the Year of the Eucharist under way.
"Eucharistic miracles are extraordinary phenomena of a different type," Legionary Father Rafael Pascual, director of the congress, told Vatican Radio. "For example, there is the transformation of the species of bread and wine into flesh and blood, the miraculous preservation of consecrated Hosts, and some Hosts that shed blood."
"In Italy, these miracles have occurred in several places," he said, "but we also find them in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain " and some in North America.
From the last paragraph it seems you think I’m suggesting long strips of cloth like one might use bandaging a injury. I did not.
The Gospels say only Jesus was wrapped in a single cloth with a hundred pounds of spices. That would argue for a side to side wrapping instead of what the Shroud depicts.
This is more the suggested by the words used and would allow minimal handling and enclosing the spices.
Dramatic license on Mel’s part? That’s called making things up when it’s shown as taking place when it didn’t.
Kind of like the illustration in the reply.
Looks like a press release, interesting but ...
I understood your meaning... but many people think in terms of swaddling bandages so I was addressing that misapprehension.
The Gospels say only Jesus was wrapped in a single cloth with a hundred pounds of spices. That would argue for a side to side wrapping instead of what the Shroud depicts.
I disagree and so do a lot of scholars who have studied Jewish burial practices of the 1st Century and before. Body contact had to be minimal. Repeatedly lifting and wrapping the body while trying to keep the herbs and spices contained in a round-about fashion would be extremely difficult and require much more bodily contact. Spreading the Shroud on a stone bench, placing the body on the shroud and then packing the herbs and spices around the body, then pulling the shroud over the body is much simpler, less contacting, and can be accomplished in the very limited time available. Try lifting a dead weight sometime and spreading a cloth under it, especially with loose herbs and spices...
With the approach depicted in the picture, only one basic body contact is required to place the body. Minimal contact would be required to do the necessary binding of the wrists, ankles, and jaw... and then the spices can be places with no further bodily contact.
Remember that Lazarus was called forth from the grave... and walked out, not burdened by 100 lbs or so of spices and herbs. That would hardly be possible if he were swaddled and wrapped around and around... and Lazurus' burial was a complete, properly ritualized burial, not the hurried job that had to be done on Jesus.
The Gospels are actually silent on which way the cloth was arrayed... but the principle of Occams' Razor leans toward the traditional usage of shrouds... and even the term "shrouded" does not imply winding.
The traditional requirement for the blood to be buried with the corpse is NOT made up... the depiction of Mary collecting the blood soaked soil is what I was referring to when I mention "dramatic license." IF it was done, it most likely would have been one of the men handling the burial, not Mary.
This all seems very subjective. Do you have a source to cite about tomb excavations where this style of burial practice was actually used?
Zenit is the Catholic version of AP.
If you have any reason to doubt the scientific findings, please provide it. The article mentions that the scientific evidence was evaluated and verified by the World Health Organization.
A press release is interesting but it is not evidence of anything other than Linoli stating what he said he found.
The release says verification of his work was published by WHO. Do you have this verification or know where it can be found?
Do you have a site where The Sclavo Notebooks in Diagnostics, Collection #3, 1971, where Linoli published his research, can be found?
I can’t say I have problems with the findings because I haven’t seen any.
Repetitions of the press release, yes, but little else.
And how could I trust the veracity of The Sclavo Notebooks in Diagnostics, Collection #3, 1971? There's no logical end to this line of skepticism.
So... why not go to Lanciano and see for yourself the human flesh that has not degraded for over 1200 years --a phenomena that has been witnessed by countless thousands of people? Do you think it's worth finding out whether the Eucharist truly is the Body and Blood of Christ?
I'm convinced of the miracle, especially considering the fact that the blood type of the Shroud, Sudarium and Eucharistic miracle match --something well beyond the possibility of medieval hoax or forgery.
If you're not convinced of the miracle, so be it. But you have provided no objective reason for skepticism.
I can't doubt the scientific evidence that you say exists, and because it seems not to be available, I haven't seen it, apparently you haven't seen what you cite for support either.
The most that can gleaned from Linoli’s statements is that he was given samples of heart and blood tissue, type AB and that a sub group of WHO confirmed that, yes. it is heart and blood tissue.
My skepticism is therefore quite objective.
“And how could I trust the veracity of The Sclavo Notebooks in Diagnostics, Collection #3, 1971?”
It's part of the sources you refer to as scientific evidence supporting your belief!
You're free to believe whatever you wish and call it as you will but if you cite “scientific evidence” in support it should at least be available so we both can look at it and evaluate it.
It's part of the sources you refer to as scientific evidence supporting your belief!
It was a rhetorical question.
o.k., I’ll continue to search for the referenced material as I would like to know just what was published. Thanks.
True, and even the term winding doesn't tell us how wound.
In searching for information on 1st. century burial practices I keep finding statements that the body was wrapped and or dressed in burial garments (shrouds), or that Gamaliel started a tradition of simple burial garments.
Of course, that doesn't enlighten as to how wrapped, etc.
“Remember that Lazarus was called forth from the grave... and walked out, not burdened by 100 lbs or so of spices and herbs. That would hardly be possible if he were swaddled and wrapped around and around... and Lazarus’ burial was a complete, properly ritualized burial, not the hurried job that had to be done on Jesus.”
I'm not being flippant when I say if God can free Lazarus from death He could surely free him from cloth as easily.
But that's neither here nor there, When Jesus said, ‘come out’, Lazarus came out.
When you say “scholars” can you direct me to some of them?
I'd like to find out if different groups followed the same traditions and just how closely traditions were followed.
Having said my say, any sources you can share would be appreciated. Thanks.
Unfortunately, most of the information I have been sharing with you has come from years (about 30) of reading and studying the subject matter as well as attending conferences and hearing presentations by some of those scholars, seeing their evidence and reading the rebuttals of the peer-reviews. I suggest you start looking at Barrie Schwortz excellent website:
Where you can find many of the scientific and scholarly articles on the Shroud. Barrie also has sources for many of the books on the subject.
You should also check out our fellow Freeper Shroudie's several sites including:
and
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