Posted on 12/14/2008 7:10:22 PM PST by Swordmaker
It is on now... Discovery Channel. 7:00PM Pacific, 10:00PM Eastern.
“Sindon” can refer to a garment made of linen but mostly just to the cloth itself and since the action taken with the linen is described as wrapping in Mark or winding in John 19:40 with the addition of a face cloth it doesn’t describe a shroud.
Actually, the sindon as a garment is a large sheet worn wrapped about the body and tied with a sash. The word sindon was also later used to refer to an altar cloth. However, "shroud" was also a common translation synonym for "sindon." It is certainly not mere strips of cloth.
The Bible refers to τα οθονια (ta othonia), or graves cloths/clothes, which in Greek usage included a shroud and other strips of cloth that were used as bindings on the wrists, legs, ankles, to keep the body from sprawling, and around the head to keep the mouth closed, after the passing of rigor mortis. 1st Century Jewish burials have been found to show remnants of cloths strips in the vicinity of the joints of wrists and ankles, still clinging to the bones after they had been tossed into the central bone pit giving credence to this logical practice.
The "face cloth" you refer to is sudarium in Latin, το σουδαριον (soudarion) in Greek . The word Sudarium literally means a "sweat cloth," (Latin root sudor = "sweat") a cloth that was often rolled and wrapped around the forehead to prevent sweat from falling into the eyes or it could be worn around the neck like a neckerchief. It could also be used as a towel to wipe sweat from the face, and reports indicate that some Jews may have carried one tucked into a waist sash, or tied around a wrist, when not needed on the head or neck.
The Sudarium of Oviedo has been in the Cathedral in Oviedo, Spain, since the 6th Century. It bears blood stains that match the blood flows shown on the Shroud of Turin in 79 points of congruity. It also shows signs that it may have been rolled diagonally to make a cloth rope that could easily be tied, under the jaw, around the face behind the ears, and over the top of the head to keep the corpse's mouth closed, a well known practice in 1st Century Jewish burials. This usage of "around the head," which is also a translation from the Greek also describe this usage as well as the assumed covering the face. However, there is evidence on the Sudarium that it was used to cover the head of the Crucified Christ while he was still on the cross and remained there until his body had been removed and brought to the tomb. It may have then served a double purpose... covering the face on the cross... and then binding the jaw shut in death.
And if the body were liberally greased with spices, John said Joseph of Arimathea used about a hundred pounds, might we not expect to see some traces on the Shroud?
IF the image on the Shroud is genuine, it appears that it was neither cleaned nor anointed with oils—the blood stains and even the dirt on the shin from a fall has been transferred to the Shroud. Also, there is absolutely no evidence that the spices were rendered into "greases" in Jewish burials. It is far more likely they bought the spices as fresh plants and dried herbs (Think in terms of a large amount of potpourri) along with a bottle or amphora of oil to be used in cleaning and anointing the body. Oils were used to ritually clean the bodies and to anoint them. In a normal burial, before the body could be anointed, it would have been washed—except that under Jewish law, a person who had died a violent death would not be washed as the blood had to remain with the body. Anything that was bloodied had to be interred with the body. "Life is in the blood" (Genesis 9.4, Leviticus 17:11, 14) Certainly, crucifixion counts as a violent, bloody death.
In fact, Joseph and his helpers were working under a strict time constraint—the Sabbath started at sundown and they needed to be home and ritually clean themselves before the Sabbath. Mark 15:42 tells us that it was already evening before Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for Jesus' body and started the burial process. For that reason, the preparations were hurried. It is likely they placed the body in the tomb, packed their supplies around it, and hurried home to see to their own rituals. The women going to the tomb on the day after the Sabbath were going there to finish the job of preparing the body.
The "hundred pounds" of spices packed around the body may explain why the shroud does not drape over the body and distort the image.
There are pollens of such middle eastern spices as would have been used found on both the Shroud and the Sudarium.
Yes. It was an ill considered, ill advised, and poorly thought out "restoration" of that which did not need restoration. Mechthild Flury-Lemburg believed that the fire that occurred in 1536 was still slowly burning and convinced the custodian of the Shroud that the damaged areas needed to be cut away. She also vacuumed the Shroud, washed parts of it, and tried to stretch wrinkles out of it... and then ironed it! Any evidence on the Shroud from the environment was cleaned away and collected into vials... but now it was no longer in situ and data was lost. She's an idiot.
I don't intend to. You've made the claims. Do not post them on this thread. I will NOT play your game. I will not respond to you again. You are not worth the time or effort.
I saw on another post that Rogers also published his article in ajournal he helped to found. Is that true?
I am facinated by the Shroud, but I don't know much about it. In the TV show last night, they had a doctor who said the nails went through the palms, however, not the wrists
You know what Hope gets you.
I sure hope Obama lets me keep some change.
Just because something isn't explicitly mentioned in the Bible, doesn't mean that it doesn't/didn't exist.
The image on the Shroud conforms to the Jewish burial practices of Jesus' time.
John chapter 20 is very interesting.
John 20A logical inference, given their knowledge.1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.
It appears that John didn't say anything, so we can assume that he did not disagree with Mary's conclusion.
6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.What did John see and believe? That Jesus had risen from the dead? Why would he assume that? In fact, the very next line states:
9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)John had already seen the "strips of linen." But he didn't see "the burial cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus' head" until he entered the tomb. Why would seeing a plain white burial cloth cause John to "see and believe"? The disciple's behavior is very puzzling, and very difficult to explain given the information provided in John 20 alone.
The existence of the Shroud provides a satisfying explanation for the disciples' behavior. An image of Jesus on the cloth would have indicated to Jesus' disciples that something miraculous had occurred, and it would explain their behavior upon entering the tomb, as recorded in John 20.
How would you rate this documentary on a scale of 1-10, worst to best? It’s hard to find a good one.
The bible accounts don't support a shroud but rather a wound around cloth. (Mark 15:46 and John 19:40)
Very iteresting. My understanding is that the bones of the hand are to slender and fragile to support the weight of a man hanging. The result would have been that the hand would actually rip away from the nails holding it.
The few things I've read about the Shroud says the nails went through the wrist.
Luke 18:34The passages I cited in John say the same thing.The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.
So what did John "see and believe"? And why did he "see and believe"?
The Bible seems to be silent with regard to these questions. But it seems that God has provided a compelling answer in the Shroud.
I'd rate this one about a 7.5. The information presented is factual, Ray Rogers was presented establishing what he discovered when he set out to falsify Marino's and Benford's repair hypothesis, but it was far from complete in presenting all of Rogers findings.
It did establish that what was tested in 1988 by the C-14 labs was a skillfully rewoven patch that incorporated non-original material from the 16th century, thus giving a combined dating... an error.
It is possible that Ray Rogers may have been involved in the founding of Thermochimica Acta. Seeing as how he was one of the world's leading pyrolysis chemist, a Fellow of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, and involved in other scientific and educations organizations. TA was founded over 40 years ago.
The poster made a big deal of Rogers have been an editor of the Journal for 18 years. Editors of such scientific journals are usually scientists in the field being covered. Rogers had been retired from such involvement for over 20 years. The poster also implied that the current editors lowered their submission standards and did not put the article out for peer-review. That is not true. No scientific journal with the reputation of Thermochimica Acta would damage its reputation in such a way merely to please an ex-editor.
The work published in TA has been duplicated and published independently in other journals.
However, an independent, peer-reviewed journal is not the equivalent of an in-house magazine published, edited, and controlled by McCrone. When challenged on lack of peer-review McCrone responded that The Microsope was reviewed by employees of McCrone Research.
Rogers other Shroud work has been published in other peer-reviewed, scientific journals such as Melanoidins. Articles appearing there include his findings that the Shroud image is made up of a caramel-like substance created by a Maillard Reaction in the residues of the starches and soapwort used to ret the Linen before spinning and weaving. The research published in Melanoidins has also been duplicated and confirmed.
Dr. Zuniga did indeed state that as well as the fact that his research on both living and dead subjects shows that the palmar placement of a nail would support the weight of the average human body. What he found is that the entrance wound would be in the palm, low down, by the ball of the thumb. The exit wound, however, with the nail following a natural pathway through the bones of the wrist, exits exactly on the back of the wrist where it is shown on the Shroud.
Contrary to what the program stated, it was not Dr. Zuniga who discovered that the nail would touch the Median Nerve and cause the folding of the thumbs into the palm. That was discovered by other forensic medical researchers much earlier in the 20th Century.
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