Please ignore Soliton's anti-shroud screed posting.
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Posted on 12/14/2008 7:10:22 PM PST by Swordmaker
It is on now... Discovery Channel. 7:00PM Pacific, 10:00PM Eastern.
Please ignore Soliton's anti-shroud screed posting.
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I sure hope you pinged him to that comment.
The most telling argument against the shroud being associated with Jesus’ burial is the way Jesus’ burial with a face cloth and linen clothes being wound around Jesus’ body with a large quantity of spices and ointments being applied. (John, chapter 20)
Whatever the shroud is and where it came from it is not what the Bible describes as the clothes that covered Jesus.
If anyone would like to challenge any of my contentions, I can support them.
Swordmaker will not debate because he doesn’t have the research that I do.
I watched it, but they seemed to omit a lot. Didn’t a famous art forensics guy eith STRP say it was painted?
He might debate anyway. Swordmaker tried to debate me back in 2003 over the Shroud. I had posted that the Shroud could only prove that a man glowed in the dark after death, and Swordmaker took me seriously.
He tried to debate me once but I have a database of the people and players and papers. I know the subject. Apparently he goes to the conventions and has met some of the people. He is a believer. Facts do not matter.
No, I did not.
"Then he (Joseph of Arimathea) bought fine linen, took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen. And he laid Him in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock, and rolled a stone against the door of the tomb." Mark 15: 46 New King James VersionIn the original Greek, that verse says that Joseph of Arimathea purchased a fine Sindon, a shroud, not strips of cloth. The linen of the Shroud is a very fine Linen, hand woven, that represented about two months worth of labor. The idea of "winding" cloths around the body is a confabulation resulting from confusing Egyptian burial techniques with those of the Hebrews. First Century Jews did not bind their dead in mummy like wrappings... they did not embalm, or wrap them tightly in yards and yards of linen strips. Burials were fairly simple rituals requiring washing the body, annointing with oils, and packing around the body with herbs and spices. Extant documents show that Jews buried their dead with a shroud, strips of cloth that bound the ankles and wrists to prevent them from flopping, and another strip around the head, under the jaw, to keep the mouth closed. Exhumations of 1st Century Jewish burials show that the shroud is not inconsistent with Jewish burial customs.
I have debated you many times. I have refuted all of your "science" and your "experts" with documentation from peer-reviewed publications. You put up skeptic sites that are usually self-referential and non-peer-reviewed. You discount ALL scientists, except those you decide are "qualified," including those who are world renowned in their fields making statements ABOUT their fields of expertise. Your scientists are working outside of their fields of expertise, have not published in peer-reviewed journals, and, in most cases, have not worked with the actual materials. You use ad hominem attacks against me and against the scientists. You have already started in on Ray Rogers even before the documentary was aired. I will not bother to debate you again. You are not welcome on Shroud threads.
Thanks for the ping!
I am unqualified to argue any point, but in my readings I learned that the coloration on the shroud does not penetrate as deeply as a single fiber. Doesn’t sound like paint. I’ve also heard it claimed that it was painted during the Renaissance, but I don’t believe that at that time people were aware that the nails went through the wrist rather than the palms of the hand. As I say, I’m no expert; feel free to correct me.
I invite any reader here to click on Alex's links and see why I would take his discussion with me "seriously" and whether I agreed with the "glow in the dark" claim he made... or even with the premise of the article that started the thread which was entitled: "SHROUD OF TURIN REVEALS IMAGES OF TWO CROWNS OF THORNS"
More of the same from you: Ad hominem attacks.
You are the one who chooses to ignore the latest research and science, not me You are the "true believer" here. not I. You are so convinced of your skeptic position that you ignore anyone who disagrees with you and your non-scientist sources, such as English teacher, and failed magician, Joe Nickell, or Geologist Steven Schafersman ... despite their lack of expertise, foundation, or factuality.
Yes. However, he was not an official member of STURP, he did some work for them under contract.
Walter C. McCrone, a microscopist, claimed that he found Red Ochre (Iron Oxide) and Vermilion (Mercury Sulfide) paint on the Shroud. He also claimed that there is no blood on the Shroud. No other scientist, examining the same materials that McCrone examined, has found what he claimed. World renowned experts in blood fractions, blood remnants, and porphyrins have examined the blood stains on the Shroud and stated in peer-reviewed scientific journals that the blood stains ARE extremetly old blood products and blood derivatives. They even reported that the blood stains gave positive results for immunoassay testing for human/primate blood.
McCrone refused to submit his work to peer-review until ten years later, and originally published his 'findings' only in his own vanity publication The Microscope, in direct violation of his contract with the Shroud of Turin Research Project scientists. Even McCrone's own employee, an electron microscope specialist, rebutted McCrone's claims after putting the samples under his EM.
No evidence for pigments (paint, dye* or stains) was found anywhere on the Turin Shroud. Other far more specific scientific tests including ultraviolet spectrometry, infrared spectrometry, x-ray fluorescence spectrometry, thermography, pyrolysis-mass-spectrometry, laser microprobe Raman analyses, and microchemical testing, have shown there are no pigments on the Shroud that are significantly associated with the image areas. What small amounts of such pigments are found appear to be randomly distributed environmental contaminations or contaminations caused by the pressing of painted copies to the original shroud to imbue them with a holy connection, strewn across the Shroud unrelated to image or non-image areas. (I have asterisked the comment on "dye" above because dyes have been found only in one location on the Shroud: half of the 1988 Carbon Test sample is composed of dyed Cotton instead of the un-dyed Linen that makes up the other half of the sample and the rest of the Shroud's main body.)
We now know exactly what the image is composed of... and it is not Red Ochre or Vermilion. It is a polysaccharide, a form of caramel, formed in the starches left behind by the retting process (a technique to soften Linen) and its washing in Soapwort. One modality of formation demonstrated is the formation of the caramel substance, a meloiden
It certainly is NOT PAINT... and completely falsifies McCrone's claim of finding that the image was a "beautiful medieval painting."
“Sindon” can refer to a garment made of linen but mostly just to the cloth itself and since the action taken with the linen is described as wrapping in Mark or winding in John 19:40 with the addition of a face cloth it doesn’t describe a shroud.
“Exhumations of 1st Century Jewish burials show that the shroud is not inconsistent with Jewish burial customs.”
Does this men they used shrouds to cover the body and face as the Turin one seems to indicate?
And if the body were liberally greased with spices, John said Joseph of Arimathea used about a hundred pounds, might we not expect to see some traces on the Shroud?
Did you ever read through THE RAPE OF THE TURIN SHROUD by Meacham out in Hong Kong of all places?
You are so kind and for the sake of truth bother to rebut these people who one would think that most only care to spin the truth into what they want to believe. Many seem desperate to not believe that the shroud may truly be the burial cloth of our LORD and Saviour Jesus Christ. Your rebuttals are extremely well thought out. Thank you, God bless you and have a very Merry Christmas!
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