Posted on 10/17/2008 7:59:18 AM PDT by Soliton
Three antievolutionists have been appointed to a six-member committee to review the draft set of Texas state science standards, and defenders of the integrity of science education in the Lone Star state are livid. "The committee was chosen by 12 of the 15 members of the board of education, with each panel member receiving the support of two board members," as the Dallas Morning News (October 16, 2008) explains. Six members of the board "aligned with social conservative groups" chose Stephen C. Meyer, the director of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture, Ralph Seelke, a biology professor at the University of Wiconsin, Superior, and Charles Garner, a chemistry professor at Baylor University.
Meyer, Seelke, and Garner are all signatories of the Discovery Institute-sponsored "Dissent from Darwinism" statement. Meyer and Seelke are also coauthors of Explore Evolution: The Arguments For and Against Neo-Darwinism (Hill House, 2008), which, like Of Pandas and People, is a supplementary textbook that is intended to instill scientifically unwarranted doubts about evolution. A recent review by biologist John Timmer summarized, "But the book doesn't only promote stupidity, it demands it. In every way except its use of the actual term, this is a creationist book." Garner reportedly told the Houston Press (December 14, 2000) that he "criticizes evolutionary theory in class."
Meyer and Seelke also testified in the 2005 "kangaroo court" hearings held by three antievolutionist members of the Kansas state board of education, in which a parade of antievolutionist witnesses expressed their support for the so-called minority report version of the state science standards (written with the aid of a local "intelligent design" organization), complained of repression by a dogmatic evolutionary establishment, and claimed to have detected atheism lurking "between the lines" of the standards..
(Excerpt) Read more at ncseweb.org ...
Whatever’s convenient to disprove God.
In this, the classical Greeks, Israel, and Christianity are all in agreement.
So are you now suggesting that we should also include Plato and the creation stories/myths of the ancient Greeks a science classroom now devoted to teaching various creationism stories instead of teaching actual modern science? Kool! Let’s go with that.
Plato, in his dialogue Timaeus, describes a creation myth involving a being called the demiurge.
Hesiod, in his Theogony, says that Chaos existed in the beginning, and then gave birth to Gaea (the Earth), Tartarus (the Underworld), Eros (desire), Nyx (the darkness of the night) and Erebus (the darkness of the Underworld). Gaea brought forth Ouranos, the starry sky, her equal, to cover her, the hills, and the fruitless deep of the Sea, Pontus, "without sweet union of love," out of her own self. But afterwards, Hesiod tells, she lay with Heaven and bore the World-Ocean Oceanus, Coeus and Crius and the Titans Hyperion and Iapetus, Theia and Rhea, Themis and Mnemosyne and Phoebe of the golden crown and lovely Tethys. "After them was born Cronos the wily, youngest and most terrible of her children, and he hated his lusty sire." Cronos, at Gaia's urging, castrates Uranus. He marries Rhea who bears him Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus. Zeus and his brothers overthrow Cronos and the other Titans, then draw lots to determine what each of them will rule. Zeus draws the sky, Poseidon draws the sea, and Hades draws the underworld. The Earth was contested and no one of them had absolute sovereignty over it, as shown by Poseidon's anger when Zeus forced him to leave the battlefield in the Iliad.
“In this, the classical Greeks, Israel, and Christianity are all in agreement? Really? All though I think the ancient classical Greek mythologies and philosophers are a very important part of a classical education that sure doesn’t sound anything like the accounts of creation from Genesis.
FYI, when I learned about ancient Greek mythology it was in literature classes and comparative religion classes and when I studied Plato it was in poly-sci or ancient history classes where the study of such topics like the creation stories of Judea-Christianity creation stories and those of other religions actually belong. But why stop with just Plato and the ancient Greeks?
Now if I have any say in what creation story really deserves to be told, I’d vote for the old Norse tradition.
For one thing I’m descendent from good old Norwegian Viking stock and know that Leif Erikson first discovered America; he who actually knew where he was going and how to get there unlike that hapless Italian who was hopelessly lost and just by pure accident and good luck, stumbled upon a few islands in the Caribbean even though he thought they were off the coast of India – many of thousands of miles away. I would say that we in the US should really celebrate the national holiday of Leif Erikson Day instead of Columbus Day and give equal time to the creation story of the Old Norse.
I also say this because the Vikings had nearly as much to do with our concepts of modern civil law as did the ancient Greeks. If you are curious, look it up some time. Much of our civil law and ideas of property rights were passed down from the English who learned them from their Viking and Norman (Norseman) landlords, who were actually much more advanced in these areas than the Greeks or Romans.
Besides the Old Norse creation myth is just as interesting and just as valid, objectively speaking as any other creation myth and perhaps more epic and poetic in its prose.
The Voluspa opens with the Norse account of the creation of the present universe :
Old tales I remember | of men long ago. I remember yet | the giants of lore [...] Of old was the age | when Ymir lived; No Sea nor cool waves | nor sand there were; Earth had not been, | nor heaven above, Only a yawning gap, | and grass nowhere.
In the beginning there was nothing except for the ice of Niflheim, to the north, and the fire of Muspelheim, to the south. Between them was a yawning gap (the phrase is sometimes left untranslated as a proper name: Ginnungagap), and in this gap a few pieces of ice met a few sparks of fire. The ice melted to form Eiter, which formed the bodies of the hermaphrodite giant Ymir and the cow Auðumbla, whose milk fed Ymir. Auðumbla fed by licking the rime ice, and slowly she uncovered a man's hair. After a day, she had uncovered his face. After another day, she had uncovered him completely: Búri.
Ymir fathered Thrudgelmir, as well as two humans, one man and one woman. Búri fathered Borr. Borr had three sons, Vili, Ve, and Odin, who killed the giant Ymir. In the vast flood of Ymir's blood, both the primordial man and woman died. Thrudgelmir was also drowned, although not before he had fathered Bergelmir. Bergelmir hid in a hollow tree trunk and survived. Odin and his brothers used Ymir's body to create the universe : they ground his flesh into dirt, and the maggots that appeared in his flesh became the dwarves that live under the earth. His bones became the mountains, and Odin strew his brains into the sky to create the clouds. The universe comprises nine worlds, of which this earth (Mannheim) is central.
They placed the four dwarves Nordri (North), Sudri (South), Austri (East), and Vestri (West) to hold up Ymir's skull and create the heavens. Then using sparks from Muspelheim, the gods created the sun, moon and stars. As Odin and two others (the Eddas say Hœnir and Lóðurr, these are thought to be kennings for Vili and Ve) walked along the beach, they found two pieces of driftwood. From these, they created the 'first' human beings (the previous two having drowned in the flood of Ymir's blood), Ask and Embla. Ymir's eyebrows were used to create a place where the human race could live in; a place called Midgard.
The gods regulated the passage of the days and nights, as well as the seasons. Sol is the goddess of the sun, a daughter of Mundilfari, and wife of Glen. Every day, she rides through the sky on her chariot, pulled by two horses named Arvak and Alsvid. This passage is known as Alfrodull, meaning "glory of elves," which in turn was a common kenning for the sun. Sol is chased during the day by Skoll, a wolf that wants to devour her. Solar eclipses signify that Skoll has almost caught up to her. (It is fated that Skoll will eventually catch Sol and eat her at the end of the world; however, she will be replaced by her daughter.) Sol's brother, the moon Mani, is chased by Hati, another wolf. The earth is protected from the full heat of the sun by the dwarf Svalin, who stands between the earth and Sol. The flaming manes of Arvak and Alsvid provide the light for the earth.
I happen to like the creation story of my ancestors more than I like the one of your choosing, but at the end of the day, neither really belongs in a science classroom, where the study of the workings of the natural world should be studied and should neither set out to prove nor disprove that of the purely spiritual realm.
There is nothing outside of space and time. If you think I am wrong I am willing to look at any evidence you may have : )
As a Christian, Newton was regarded a heretic: He was a relentless monotheist who rejected the Trinity as an unnecessary complication of causes (i.e., Occam's Razor). His concept of God: God is Creator — and God Pantocrator — of the universe. (Pantocrator meaning all-ruling, or absolute ruler).
Newton was probably the greatest genius of all time. He wasn't always right but he was pretty darn close : )
Anyhoot, I thought you might appreciate the Newton story, LeGrande. Life is full of such little ironies....
I read a mystery novel based on when Newton was the warden of the Mint. Dark Matter I think it was called. It was a mildly entertaining book that touched on Newtons heretical beliefs, especially concerning Christ.
There is no "outside of" space and time. Not being bound by physical laws is just a cop out. Leprachauns aren't bound by physical laws either, except that they have to put a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow : ) How can you differentiate between a leprechaun and your God?
Do you EVER back up any of your statements or is everything supposed to be taken on your say so?
Why do you demand evidence from others for their statements and NEVER provide any for your own, even when repeatedly asked for it?
Why do you hold up others to standards you refuse to meet yourself?
So, let’s try again. What’s the evidence to support your contention that information cannot travel faster than the speed of light?
If nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, then how did the universe expand at a rate many times that?
If there’s nothing outside space/time, where did the singularity come from?
How did it get there?
Where did the material it was composed of come from?
So you think that Newton was one of the greatest geniuses of all time but you can sit in judgment on him and determine when he was right and when he wasn’t; as if you’re smarter than he?
They are talking about space itself. The speed of light is invariant and light beyond the event horizon will never reach us.
God made leprachauns.
God is responsible for all we know or ever will, all you dream up...that's what omnipotent means.
Oh and you won't stand before a leprachaun all by yourself in judgement either.
In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz (Feathered Serpent). These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought Earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals etc, and each came into being. But none of these things could praise them, so they formed more advanced beings of clay. But these beings fell apart when they got wet, so they made beings out of wood, but they proved unsatisfactory and caused trouble on the earth. The gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quiché In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz (Feathered Serpent).
These two sat together and thought, and whatever they thought came into being. They thought earth, and there it was. They thought mountains, and so there were. They thought trees, and sky, and animals etc, and each came into being. But none of these things could praise them, so they formed more advanced beings of clay. But these beings fell apart when they got wet, so they made beings out of wood, but they proved unsatisfactory and caused trouble on the earth. The gods sent a great flood to wipe out these beings, so that they could start over. With the help of Mountain Lion, Coyote, Parrot, and Crow they fashioned four new beings. These four beings performed well and are the ancestors of the Quich.
In the beginning there was only darkness. Suddenly a small bearded man, the One Who Lives Above, appeared rubbing his eyes as if just awakened. The man, the Creator, rubbed his hands together and there appeared a little girl, Girl-Without-Parents. The creator rubbed his face with his hands and there stood the Sun-God. Again Creator rubbed his sweaty brow and from his hands dropped Small-boy. Now there were four gods.Then he created Tarantula, Big Dipper, Wind, Lightning-Maker and Lightning-Rumbler. All four gods shook hands so that their sweat mixed together. Then Creator rubbed his palms together from which fell a small round, brown ball. They took turns kicking it and with each kick the ball grew larger. Creator told Wind to go inside the ball and blow it up. Then Tarantula spun a black cord which he attached to the ball and went to the east pulling as hard as he could.
He repeated this exercise with a blue cord to the south, a yellow cord to the west and a white cord to the north. When he was done the brown ball had become the earth. The Creator again rubbed his hands and there appeared Hummingbird. “Fly all over this earth,” said Creator to Hummingbird, “and tell us what you see.” When he returned Hummingbird reported that there was water on the west side. But the earth rolled and bounced, so Creator made four giant posts one each black, blue, yellow and white and had Wind place them at the four cardinal points of the earth. The earth was now still. The creation of the people, animals, birds, trees, etc takes place hereafter.
Ummmm NOOOOOOOOOO, I think most of us have been saying until we're blue in the face we agree with what scientists themselves say about ID, that their theory should be heard, AND that science worked much better before god-hating NEA liberals destroyed public schools AND the integrity of science (and everything else) with their agenda that has nothing whatsoever to do with science (or history or law or culture or social studies or sex education...)
What’s beyond the “event horizon”?
I provided equations and offered to provide experimental evidence. I simply asked what you wanted specifically. Do you really doubt Einsteins Theory of Relativity?
Why do you demand evidence from others for their statements and NEVER provide any for your own, even when repeatedly asked for it?
I do. I even provided a scriptural reference that you said didn't exist.
Why do you hold up others to standards you refuse to meet yourself?
I don't. I simply expect others to have something past a third grade education. Maybe I set the bar too high?
So, let’s try again. What’s the evidence to support your contention that information cannot travel faster than the speed of light?
E=MC2 do you need an explanation and experimental evidence that supports it? My purpose here is to help eliminate your ignorance : )
If nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, then how did the universe expand at a rate many times that?
Fields. Massless (informationless) fields can effectively travel faster than light. Light is waves on those fields.
If there’s nothing outside space/time, where did the singularity come from?
There are many singularities in the center of each black hole, perhaps they are giving birth to their own universe we don't know.
How did it get there?
Particle anti-particle creation is a fundamental law of QM.
Where did the material it was composed of come from?
E = MC2 and spontaneous particle creation.
So you think that Newton was one of the greatest geniuses of all time but you can sit in judgment on him and determine when he was right and when he wasn’t; as if you’re smarter than he?
Not me! I am a fool or didn't you get the memo? I just learn from those who discovered his errors. Newton thought light was instantaneous, it isn't :) The reason Newton is revered is because he almost single handedly created modern science.
Heads I win, tails you lose.
Presumably more of the Universe, but we don't know because the information (light) will never reach us.
In the beginning was only Tepeu and Gucumatz (Feathered Serpent).
It absolutely amazes me that people can be so insecure and fearful to leap to: “this is what creationists want to see in the first chapter in all science texts under ‘origins’ “, simply because scientists question the cult of evolution.
I would ask you to do a historical investigation into how schools performed before God was kicked out, but much of this history is rapidly being erased, and you’ve simply drank too much kool aid. I fear there’s just no going back for you.
If you were in labor the water already broke, there’s just no going back.
Thus, your astrophysicist co-religionists consider your statement that “nothing is faster than the speed of light” to be falsified by the expansion speed of the universe itself. Moreover, light travels at all sorts of speeds—it all depends on the medium it is traveling through.
Yup...godless liberals are so arrogant they think man can control the weather.
I’ve even seen stories where they thought Cheney owns a raygun and got on a sub and created Katrina to hurt black people in Nahluns.
Those evil geniuses are soooo stupid!
I had a bumper sticker made up knocking out two (dumb) birds (algoreacle & bambi) with one stone:
weather: REAL *change* we can all *hope* for!
If I had it to do over again I might have done:
climate: *change* we can all *hope* for.
But too many liberals wouldn’t get it anyway, might even think I was one of them even though I’ve got “bitter clinger” on the other end, but then I saw a ‘pro-life’ sticker on a car with ‘Obama 08’ on the other end!
While the rest of us (normal people) are just looking forward to the end of whatever season it is we’re in and are usually complaining about, they think we actually DO have some kind of control over it! :)
How do you know it never will? People said man would never fly too.
The repetition is getting tedious, but we are talking about light in a vacuum in the absence of a large gravitational field.
So what exactly is it with E = MC2 that you disagree with? The astrophysicists certainly aren't disagreeing with it and they aren't claiming that information can be transmitted faster than light speed. Are you claiming that information can be transmitted faster than light?
Here in DC and Bethesda, we have Obama bumper stickers plastered all over Mercedes, BMWs and Lexus, most of whose owners will be hiring highly paid tax attorneys and CPAs to minimize their tax burden.
Obama knows his core constituency well when he uses the word “hope”. When used in the context of the Obama campaign, “hope” is a concept of the passive and needy, and is the polar opposite of initiative and “self-reliance”. “Hope” that the Messiah-led gubment will do for them what they are unwilling to do for themselves.
When I see liberals like Algore storing their cars in the garage, parking their jets in the hanger, draining their pools, turning off their computers and home theatres, and moving to little houses with little or no heat or air conditioning, then I’ll know they’re serious about “climate change”.
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