Posted on 09/16/2008 5:50:43 AM PDT by Pistolshot
Thanks for the ping... I was the freeper with yesterday’s thread and I’ve still got plenty to learn.
One piece of feedback I have for the RKBA crowd is that when someone says they’re on a limited budget, suggesting an M-249 with night vision, laser range finding sniper scope is a bit over the top.
Interesting premise...
This is one of the most forgotten and prolific caliber/rifle combinations that cover both as a game getter and a good defensive rifle. Simple to operate, ammo is easy to find and portability.
You are correct it’s M1A. Just hit too many keys. Thanks.
It was not but 4 years ago that you could buy a surplus 8mm Mauser for under $100 and surplus ammo was 700 rounds for $30.00. The ammo is corrosive, but cleaning with soapy water is all it takes to clean that out of the bore. I am glad I bought a couple rifles and a bunch of ammo at those prices because it all seems to have dried up. I can’t find cheap surplus ammo anywhere.
Everything on that list is covered here.
Foxtrot Fortress will be in good shape if there is TEOTWAWKI.
I had to laugh at that one.
Seriously, on a budget means you get what you can afford for now, trade up later if possible.
Mossbergs are inexpensive used for the shotgun part. Handguns, you might look at Taurus. that might sound like a pitch, but speaking from experience with sales and shooting the various models, you get a lot of bang for the buck in just about everything Taurus produces.
The autos come in either all steel or polymer, the revolvers come in every form of steel, aluminum, and titanium in darn near every caliber. They have proven reliable in various conditions and the quality is way up from 10 years ago. Used handguns can be sort of an iffy proposition. Any 1911 format will set you back a few hundred dollars. They may not be great in the accuracy department, but what you are looking for mostly is reliability.
Reliability is THE most important item when you are looking at any firearm. And if you are betting your life on it, it damn well better work EVERY time. If you purchase something used and it sometimes works, get rid of it, it is only a headache and possibly a heartache waiting to happen.
That's all true, but let me mention another option. The old .30-30 is still a good all around caliber and ammo is available almost anywhere ammo is sold. Also, anybody with a press, dies, and components can reload fired .30-30 brass and make decent ammo.
A 16" or 20" barrel .30-30 lever action carbine is a handy and easy to shoot shoulder arm for either survival hunting or home/business defense. Winchester is out of business, but there are plenty of both new and used mod 94 .30-30s still on gun store racks, not to mention Marlin lever guns and the new Mossberg lever carbine in the same chambering. They aren't glamor gals and they aren't chambered for newfangled gee-whiz cartridges, but they still get the job done as they have for the last 100 plus years.
:)
The High Point carbine is a better than merely acceptable gun for the money. It has gained a lot of respect for that lowball-price gunmaker which it didn't have before the carbine was offered, and it carries a lifetime warranty that is actually what it says it is.
I don't own one, but if I did I would prefer the .40 caliber chambering for the additional power if it is to be used for medium size game in a survival situation. But OTOH the 9mm cartridge is the most readily available centerfire handgun round on earth, and in carbine length barrels it will take small to medium size game at short range with hollow point ammo. Either round is adequate for short to medium range defense use if that is one of your criteria.
Exactly the point I was going to make! Right now, ammo is available most places, but in a real SHTF scenario, the supplies will be locked up tighter than tupperware. Once you run thru your cache you have two choices: roll over and die or live off the enemy. That's why I have stuck with NATO standard weapons and ammo. Of course I included many of the former NATO standard for our military from when I was active (45ACP). I have at least 1000 rds per caliber that I own of high quality go to war combat ammo. This is distinct from the shooting supplies that I keep on hand and continually use for practice. I even stocked up on a couple thousand rounds of the old 45 Winchester Back Talon on the theory that nothing is too good for the enemies of freedom. My biggest worry is that if things go too off the chain in a post election meltdown of anger, that some tepid soul will holler for UN Peace Keepers to be invited in to restore order and democracy.
If that happens we're toast. We'll never be rid of them before they mangle the nation to the degree that it becomes unrecognizable as the USA as we know it now.
“My biggest worry is that if things go too off the chain in a post election meltdown of anger, that some tepid soul will holler for UN Peace Keepers to be invited in to restore order and democracy.”
I wouldn’t lose sleep over that. They’d refuse the job....”behind every blade of grass there would be a gun.” They’d get the job done by having our own elected officials turn against us.
Yeah Joe you are good to go 8*)
AMEN! Let me expand on that to include magazines, clips, and speedloaders:
Rule of thumb for .22 cal LR guns:
Note: If you have never shot a gun, and don't own one: STOP! Go to www.nra.org and find a "First Handgun" and "First Rifle" safety course. Your first purchase should be a VERY EASY firearm to load/chamber, fire, unload/extract, clean and store. I would suggest a .22LR revolver and then a bolt or lever action .22LR. You can upgrade to semi-auto .22LR when you feel comfortable.
With that being said, don't let anyone fool you. Many rednecks ( I count myself as one) have taken many large deer with a .22 LR in the head back when it was legal. A .22 CAN (eventually) kill a man with center of mass shots, and will be your primary game getter.
A .22 LR handgun and rifle is an essential part of any contingency plan, and IMHO should be in EVERY law-abiding household.
Anyways, I would suggest a case (10,000 rounds) for every PAIR of .22 LR handgun/rifle combo.
Example: If you have a S&W 8-shot .22LR and a Ruger 10/22 (or 77/22), you should have 20,000 rounds (2 cases (not two (2) bricks (500 rds ea))).
Magazines: Have at least ten (10) Ruger Mk II Mags/Speedloader, and ten (10) Butler creek hotlip/steel lip hi-cap mags for the 77/22 or 10/22. If you don't want to go the Ruger route, any lever action .22LR will suffice, albiet at slower ROF.
I would also order extra bolts and extractors.
Rule of thumb for handguns/revolvers:
Have 1000 rounds of regular target FMJ (WInchester, Fiochi, American Eagle, reloads, etc) per gun per caliber for plinking/hunting and approx 2-300 rounds of high-quality JHP (Corbon, Federal Hydrashock, Golden Saber, etc).
Example: If you have a Glock 22, HK USP 40, a Model 640 S&W, and a Glock 27 you should have 3,000 .40 S&W cal. FMJ rounds, 1,000 .357 MAG, 1,000 .38SPL, and approx. 1,000 rounds of JHP.
Also, have at least six (6) magazines (preferably ten (10) handgun magazines per pistol (speed loaders for revolvers).
Be sure to purchase cheap holsters for every single handgun you own to dole out to family members. You'll need every set of eyes and trigger finger if SHTF.
Rule of thumb for your current hunting rifle: Many gunowners are what I call "Fudds" (Elmer Type). They have a .22 LR, a shotgun for bird season, and a bolt or lever action for deer hunting. They have no need for handguns usually, don't carry concealed, and only hunt for pleasure or heritage, NOT TO SURVIVE. Fudd gunners are my Father and Brother. They have just a couple of guns a piece and are for hunting during game season.
Take into consideration your family and friend's arsenal and make sure that, (esp. if you are a "FUDD") you have at least 100 rounds per hunting rifle, a up to date zeroed scope, tools, and a protective cover. You might want to buy five (5) or so extra 5-shot magazines for your Remington 7400's etc. A dedicated hunting rifle will take game at a distance and will be your families ad-hoc "sniper" rifle (shhhhh....don't let sarah brady hear that). Anyways, size up the existing guns in your family and get magazines, ammo, spare parts for them. If the stock is cracked on your uncle's Winchester bolt action, get it fixed now.
Note: Alot of readers read these forums/threads/posts and run out and burn up the credit card. First things first: inventory what you and your loved ones have and update that first. Remember: 100 rounds per center-fire (per caliber, per gun).
Example: My brother, father, and sister-in-laws father has between them: A Remington 700, a Ruger 77 .243, and a Savage .300 Win Mag. Between them, they should have 100 rounds of hunting ammo, and 500 rounds of FMJ (Plinker/target) ammo per rifle.
Rules for black powder/muzzle loaders: Alot of people don't value muzzle loaders. In case of confiscation....muzzle loaders are not considered firearms! Not only that, you can make your own bullets with a caster! They are fun, and open up other legal hunting seasons. As far as self defense, they are your last resort, but better than using your fists!
I would suggest a beginner muzzle loader kit, sufficient black powder quantities (ATF limit for possession is 19 lbs I think...check with them). Get a casting kit, and accessories and sit on them. Be sure to get lots of primers, a charge rod, and slings. Lots of barrel cleaner and cleaning rods also! DO NOT LEAVE A MUZZLE LOADING REVOLVER/RIFLE LOADED LONG TERM!
Rule of thumb for semi-automatic rifles:
Semi-automatic rifles have been around for more than a century. They were perfected around WWII with the Garand rifles. Semi-auto rifles will be your stand off rifle and main battle implement if someone is dumb enough to test the safety of your family.
As far as ammo is concerned, I would have a semi-auto with detachable high capacity magazines. Have 5,000 rounds of FMJ ammo per gun per caliber, and ten (10) (preferably twenty (20)) magazines per gun per caliber. Try to collect 500 rounds per gun, per caliber of high grade HP/match grade ammo also.
Example: If you own an AR-15 clone and a Norinko MAK-90, I would have 5,000 rounds of .223 FMJ, 5,000 Rounds of surplus 7.62.39 ammo, and lots of magazines (and loaders).
Rule of thumb for shotguns:
Well, I guess between the .22 LR and the shotgun fans, if there is any long arm that you must possess for home defense, the shotgun wins hands down.
For protection within the home (under 75 feet) use number 4 buckshot.
For any type of penetrating factors, or use against personnel in the sub-zero temperature that have LOTS of clothing, use #00 buck. (NOTE: 00 Buck will penetrate SEVERAL interior walls and possibly your neighbors house).
For your SHTF storage, keep spare parts, bolts, extractors, a stock or two, along with 1-200 rounds of shotgun ammo per gun, per caliber. .20 gauge are great for teens/small females.
There are alot of wierd rounds for shotguns such as flamethrowers, salt, etc. ....stay away from them.
Get various loads and make sure your gun can chamber them. In a panic around Y2K, I saw lots of ignorant people buy 3.5" magnum rounds for shotguns that wouldn't take 3.5" magnum rounds.
Example: I have a Remington 870, Benelli Nova, and a Mossberg 500. I should have approximately 600-800 rounds of shotgun ammo split between duck loads/slugs/#4 buck for defense inside home/#00 buck for outside home/turkey loads/etc.
Submachine guns: NOTE: It is illegal to posses select fire "machine guns" as per NFA and USC Title 18 laws. You will get in serious trouble messing around with machine guns that are not transferable (ATF Form 4) or you are not a Class II/Class III SOT.
With that being said, if you are fortunate it enough to own a submachine gun, they have their uses. A submachine gun is great for close combat, and great for sentries/patrols. The main purpose of a submachine gun (or any machine gun even) is to suppress an enemy IOT for your maneuver forces to close in and kill.
In the Arab-Israeli wars, the IDF used the ubiquitous Uzi submachinegun because of its high rate of fire in Jerusalem IOT suppress Arabs firing from windows so that the maneuver forces (armed with bolt action rifles and grenades) closed in for the kill.
Nothing says "stay the hell away from my place" like dumping a magazine from a machine gun. Given today's ammo prices, you can't be doing that every time someone walks on your property ;)
Anyways, if you do own a sub-machinegun, have 5,000 rounds per gun, per caliber and six (6) to twelve (12) magazines per gun. Always have spare bolts, springs, and parts! I have three (3) bolts per subgun I own. If you have a registered receiver, you can have all the spare parts for it you want.
If you do NOT have a submachine gun, you would be very surprised at how damn easy they are to make with a drill press and a lathe. I will not disclose how to make one due to the conspiracy to violate the NFA act, but if I were a superstitious person, I would have a STEN GUN Mk II or Uzi PARTS set, at my house, and have a relative/friend store a BLANK receiver (not a firearm until 75% complete). When the SHTF, you can do whatever you think is right. If you have a parts kit and a half completed or possible a blank receiver together = BIG TROUBLE if no Form 1, Form 4, or Form 3! Do not mess around with NFA Title 2 firearms unless you can afford ten (10) years in prison, and $300,000.00 fines!
Rules of thumbs for automatic rifles:
As with above, please follow all NFA rules. You must be a Class II/Class III SOT or hold an individual ATF Form 4 for possession.
As far as ammo is concerned, I would have 10,000 rounds per gun, per caliber and fourteen (14) to twenty (20) magazines per assault rifle.
Example, If I legally owned an AR-15 with a registered sear and a legally converted AK-47, I would have 10k rounds of surplus .223 cal. and 10k rounds of surplus 7.62x39mm.
I would also have as many full auto spare parts as you can legally have because of the stress and breakage of full auto parts over time.
NOTE: Don't get cute with full auto parts sets. ATF will bust you for "constructive possession (10 years)". When I say, "don't get cute" I mean, don't have one (1) legal AR-15 with a sear, and a rack of ten (10) AR-15 semi-automatics, and conveniently store ten (10) sears, ten (10) M16 trigger sets, and ten (10) M16 bolts as spare parts for your one (1) Form 4'd sear. Same goes for M2 parts sets for your M1 carbine.
Rules of thumb for big bore rifles (.50 BMG):
Why would you want a .50 cal. BMG rifle? Freedom baby! Thats my answer. In all seriousness, a .50 cal. rifle is your long range "puncher". Due to the limited applications of this rifle, I would not store any more than 500 rounds ($2,500 worth in today's dollars) for defense. I would keep that weapon only for disabling vehicles that don't obey my "Keep out" signs if the SHTF and balling goes up. If your hungry zombies get smart and try to apply "Hillbilly Armor" to their SUV and come at you....have a couple of APIT rounds ;)
Finally, Rules for true machine guns (belt-feds):
Belt-fed machine guns are the ultimate property protector. They can lay waste to scores of zombies and goblins charging towards your house. As far as ammo is concerned: you will need 10-20k rounds per belt-fed, per caliber, and approximately 4,000 rounds of tracer, and 2,000 rounds of AP.
You will need lots of spare barrels, parts kits, bolts, locking rings, armorer's kit, asbestos glove, head-space timer, and a tripod or 2.
My favorite is the M1919 series. You can have 8mm, .308 (israeli), and 30-06 calibers. Changing from one caliber to another isn't that hard and allows you to cherry pick calibers when the price drops. Get the TM and learn how this gun works.
Example: You own an M1919 and have all three (3) barrels and headspacing kits. You will need lots of extra parts, and approx 30-60k rounds of the various calibers along with the linker/delinker or cloth belts.
You would be surprised to how simple a M1919 is to make. You can make almost any machine gun with a lathe and a drill press. However, with that being said, unless you are a TYPE 7 FFL/SOT Class II, or in possession of a ATF Form 4, you cant have one!
Now, what you can do, (if you are the worrying type) is have a complete M1919 parts set minus the receiver (side plates). If your brother/uncle/etc. collects metal side plates, that say, perhaps, resembles a side plate for the M1919, just make damn sure they are kept far apart (as in zip code/states apart)and not drilled or cut in any way to alleviate the constructive possession or conspiracy charges. Blank receivers and template sideplates are readily available on the Internet, and are NOT firearms until you start to drill/cut them. When you start that process, the balloon had better gone up, or you better be a SOT Class II manufacturer that has an approved Form 1, Form 3, or Form 4! My advice is to obey all NFA/GCA/FOPA laws when messing around with Title 2 firearms.
Miscellaneous:
Tracer/AP:
Don't neglect Tracer ammo or Armor piercing. I load x3 rounds of tracer to the bottom of every AR-15 /M14 magazine to tell me when I am about to need a magazine change. Also, tracers can be your "initiate fire" signal to family members aimed at where you want the fire to concentrate. If you've never been in a firefight, the most prevalent question is "WHERE!?", and the most common phrase is "HOLY S**T!"
If you have any type of 30-06 or .308, try to pick up 100 rounds of black tip Armor penetrating ammo. (Unless you have a .50 BMG...then forget the AP Ammo).
Corrosive Ammo (surplus): Corrosive ammunition have what is called corrosive primers. They will eventually foul up your gun and corrode your barrel. Corrosive ammunition will still funciton and there are still BILLIONS of rounds out there. I use it alot in full autos, but I also have hot, soapy water ready after I shoot. The hot (near boiling) soapy (dawn/Palmolive) will neutralize the crystals in your barrel and chamber. A good oiling IMMEDIATELY after drying your firearm will negate the effects of most corrosion. The reasoning I'm mentioning this is that if the SHTF, the bad guys aren't going to worry if they are getting hit with 50 year old surplus ammo at $0.10/rd vs. modern, expensive hunting ammo.
Reloading:
LEARN TO RELOAD! Stock up on reloading supplies.....hoarding ammo is DAMN expensive, and I've been doing this for fifteen (15) years)!
Accessories:
Don't skimp on accessories. Every handgun should have a holster. Every long gun should have a sling. Every semi-auto should have a magazine holder. I mean, whats the use of having fourteen (14) AR-15 30-round magazines if you cant carry them around? Start going to garage sales and buying black gym bags for storing accessories.
Storage:
If you own more than three (3) nice (>$500 ea) firearms: BUY A DAMN GUN SAFE! I get tired of hearing about breakins with 20 guns missing, or a fire taking out a collection that took 20 years to accumulate.
Insurance:
Most homeowner policies only give you a few thousand dollars for firearms and not for all the accessories/ammo you buy for them.
Get another policy for your guns and accessories!!
Practice: All the crap you have in your closet isn't worth a flip if you don't know how to use it, or don't know how to safely explain it to loved ones.
Silence:
Don't brag/show off your collection. IF the SHTF, you might be a target to extremist or hard-core types seeking to enhance their arsenal. If you suspect the balloon going up, head home ARMED.
Anyways, I've given my 30 mins a day to FR...hope you guys can take something from my ramblings....stay safe!...STAY LEGAL!....STAY FREE!
DCB
Presidente Obama??
I don't trust him any more than I would Putin or Ademajadidamadaman if the excrement were to hit the fan.
My grandfather, born 1879, hunted and killed deer with a single shot .22 all his life until the state game commission outlawed rimfire .22s for deer and black bear in the 1940s. He only made clean head shots from a stand and never lost a wounded deer as far as I know.
I have often helped my dad, now deceased, slaughter beef cattle for his meat market many years ago, and he always killed the 500-600 lb steers with a .22 rifle and used only .22 short cartridges. He shot them between the eyes from a few feet away and they dropped like a rock, and they invariably hit the ground so hard that they actually bounced a little.
I certainly don't advocate anyone hunting deer today with a less than adequate gun since there are plenty of affordable used shotguns and centerfire rifles on the gun market nowdays, and I really hate to see a wounded animal trying to run off bleeding and wounded by an underpowered rifle.
Bumparoo for later.
Anything that is “round-off-the-ground” capable, IMHO.
AR series is a must have for carbine;
handgun - 9mm/40/45
Shotgun - 12G - slug/buck/slug/buck/slug
Beyond that - ANYTHING looks like a howitzer when it’s pointed at the bad guy (his perspective), and is better than a pointed stick when it’s pointed away from you and in your hand...
>Silence:
Don’t brag/show off your collection.<
Yes! And use private sales as much as possible to conceal your ownership of firearms from those promoting registration of all firearms.
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