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Texas agrees to reunite 12 polygamist sect children with parents for now
CBC News ^ | May 23, 2008 | Michelle Roberts

Posted on 05/23/2008 6:50:19 PM PDT by FreeInWV

SAN ANGELO, Texas - State child welfare authorities on Friday appealed a stinging court ruling that said their seizure of more than 440 children from a polygamist sect's ranch was unjustified, but they also agreed to reunite 12 children with their parents while the case moves on.

The agreement narrowly specifies 12 children, some of whose parents had filed a motion with a state district court in San Antonio for their release from state foster care.

Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints mothers hug after the news of a court ruling in their favor. THE ASSOCIATED PRESS/LM Otero Child Protective Services spokesman Patrick Crimmins declined to comment on the agreement.

CPS agreed to allow the parents to live with their children in the San Antonio area under state supervision, said Teresa Kelly, a spokeswoman for Rene Haas, a lawyer for the parents. The families cannot return to the Yearning For Zion ranch, where they lived before the raid.

Aside from mothers staying with their infants in foster care, no other parents from the west Texas ranch have been allowed to stay with their children.

CPS's case for removing all children from the ranch was thrown into doubt Thursday when the Third Court of Appeals ordered a lower-court judge to rescind her decision giving the state custody of more than 100 of the children. The ruling was broad enough to cover nearly every child swept up in the April raid on the ranch run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

A teenaged girl from British Columbia was reported among the children taken away by state authorities in the raid.

CPS said in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court that the appeal court was wrong to say that the vast majority of children at the ranch did not face the sort of extreme danger state law requires for them to be removed without a court order. The agency cited evidence it said showed that the church pushed teenage girls into spiritual marriages with older men.

"This case is about adult men commanding sex from underage children; about women knowingly condoning and allowing sexual abuse of underage children; about the need for the department to take action under difficult, time-sensitive and unprecedented circumstances," the state agency said in its appeal.

The state asked to keep the children in foster care while the case is reviewed.

The limited agreement CPS offered covers 12 children, but it was unclear how many families that includes. Kelly said three of the children belonged to one family who had asked the court for their children's release. Kelly didn't know why the other nine children were attached to the agreement.

Lori and Joseph Jessop had been scheduled to appear in Bexar County district court on their motion to release their three children - ages four, two and one - but CPS offered the agreement instead, Kelly said.

Similar agreements in the near future are unlikely; the couple filed their motion in a different court than the other families.

State officials said in their Supreme Court filing that it would be impossible to return all children covered in Thursday's ruling because they have not determined which children belong to which parents, and DNA tests were incomplete. The appeals court ruling technically applies only to the 38 mothers who filed the complaint.

In justifying their removal of the children from the ranch, Child Protective Services cited as "documented" sexual abuse a statement from a girl who said she knew a 16-year-old who is married with a five-month-old baby; and the statement from another girl that "Uncle Merrill" decides who and when she will marry. The state also cited five underage pregnant girls.

Authorities also said the appeals court overstepped in its ruling because a lower court had discretion to rule in the custody case.

Attorneys for the parents whose case is under high-court consideration urged the justices to reject the state's appeal, saying their children "are being subjected to continuing, irreparable harm every day that they are separated from their parents."

Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, said the appeal was no surprise "although one would hope that at some point they would realize the futility."

The parents were prepared for an extended legal battle, he said.

"They're hopeful to get on with their lives, but in reality, they understand," he said.

The agency accused parents of being unco-operative and not providing proper identification - though in dozens of individual custody hearings this week, parents provided state-issued birth certificates. Other sect members mistakenly believed to be minors also provided drivers' licenses as proof of their age.

The Third Court of Appeals said the state acted hastily.

The children were taken into custody more than six weeks ago after someone called a hot line claiming to be a pregnant, abused teenage wife. The girl has not been found and authorities are investigating whether the calls were a hoax.

The state has struggled for weeks to establish the identities of the children and sort out their tangled family relationships. The youngsters are in foster homes all over the state, with some brothers or sisters separated by as much as 960 kilometres.


TOPICS: Religion
KEYWORDS: cpswatch; flds
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To: PAR35

Well, without marriage licenses, etc., the state was never calling them all ‘traditional’ marriages. To do so would be to admit that the pregnancies were legitimate.


21 posted on 05/24/2008 9:52:15 PM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: GovernmentShrinker
All the parents were teaching their children to worship this prophet {Warren Jeffs} and follow his orders unquestioningly...

My research on this subject points to the same conclusion, GS. Whether or not the parents' minds have been trained to believe this fallacy, it still amounts to child abuse, beginning from birth.

The FLDS is just another sick cult which deprives men, women and children of a normal, free life.

22 posted on 05/24/2008 11:48:53 PM PDT by IIntense (o)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

“parents were condoning the abuse of adolescent girls and training all the boys and girls to believe that it was appropriate for adolescent girls to “marry” older men upon the command of the “prophet”. “

Oh, for Pete’s sake! You cannot condemn an entire community because of what you think they might be thinking! If that is true, half of America needs to be locked up because at least half of America is thinking horrible thoughts. You cannot conjure up some scenario of what you think might be going on in the ranch. That’s some kind of weird voo doo or something.

I do not like what they are teaching their children in West Oakland. In fact, what they are teaching their children in West Oakland is worse, far worse, than anything the FLDS could dream up in the wildest dreams. But you can’t go into West Oakland and round up all the children to save them from their culture. This is America.

The Thought Police alive and well. Read the Constitution.


23 posted on 05/25/2008 1:20:33 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: IIntense

“Whether or not the parents’ minds have been trained to believe this fallacy, it still amounts to child abuse, beginning from birth.”

People are free to be stupid in this country. We have freedom of association, freedom of religion, free speech. Your definition of child abuse is wrong. In your definition, if a parent tells a child some religious fable that you disagree with, that parent is a child abuser. Come on.


24 posted on 05/25/2008 1:26:14 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: IIntense

“The FLDS is just another sick cult which deprives men, women and children of a normal, free life. “

I’m afraid your definition of a cult is the same definition as Janet Reno’s.


25 posted on 05/25/2008 1:27:48 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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To: Gondring
Like many terms, the LDS and FLDS have different meanings for "marriage" than others might...

In my travels around the Southwest, especially Utah and Arizona, I saw a LOT of polygamy even among the regular LDS folk. I know little of Mormon doctrine but what I saw is near to what you say. It was not horndogs going after little girls but mainly elderly people in a spiritual bond. I doubt if some of the "marriages" were ever consumated. It was not marriage as I think of it.

I have been to Colorado City and I have crossed paths more than a few times with FLDS members. They are something different. Aside from the welfare implications I see no great harm from a group that purposely shuts themselves away from a dysfunctional world and follows their own lights.

I checked into a Hotel once where the guy ahead of me was FLDS. I could tell he was stiff and uncomfortable and in unfamiliar territory. The guy had a $2,000 suit on but he acted like Johnny Hayseed. His wife was a very pretty lady (the proper age) in a Prairie Dress. Later in the hallway I watched him fumble with the key card, unable to figure out how to use it and unable to get the door open. I lied and explained that they were a new invention and showed him how to use it. A $2000 suit and he had never seen a key card.

26 posted on 05/25/2008 2:26:35 AM PDT by MARTIAL MONK (I'm waiting for the POP!)
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To: MARTIAL MONK; Arkinsaw
Based on county figures and what the state has said, there doesn't seem to be any public assistance. See this article, too. (HT: Arkinsaw)

I had never given much thought about the idea of polygamy until a "regular LDS" friend of mine mentioned it supportively. She said that God wasn't against it at other times, so it wasn't unholy...it's just that the time wasn't right for it now.

Since then, I've met some non-LDS polygamist families, and it seems to work well for them. Also, there are possibilities for other schemes like line marriages (e.g., described by Heinlein in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress).

27 posted on 05/25/2008 8:45:02 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: IIntense
If you truly believe that the FLDS cult is harmless

People who believe in constitutional right and due process do not necessarily believe that the FLDS is harmless. Its pretty well been established that Warren Jeffs for instance, was not harmless. I think he even admitted that to some extent.

That doesn't however mean that every FLDS parent is harmful. It doesn't mean that every child of an FLDS parent is in immediate danger...or even danger.

Our government simply cannot judge groups of people in this way. It CANNOT judge every gun owner the same as a Crips gunman...it CANNOT judge every Catholic the same as an abusive Priest....and it CANNOT judge all FLDS members in that way either. No matter how much some would like to.

That precdent would be a danger to Catholics, gun owners, Freepers, and any other group that could be acted on as a whole because of the actions of some. Huguenots, Puritans, Piglrims, etc. fled here to escape the exact same thing and the precedent should not be reinstituted here.

I don't really give a flip about the FLDS members other than to be sure that they are treated like any American citizen and that no dangerous legal precedents are set because of emotion.
28 posted on 05/25/2008 10:34:16 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: Arkinsaw

Well said!


29 posted on 05/25/2008 10:35:39 AM PDT by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Saundra's hysterical posts are nothing more than FLDS talking points, written and released by "Big Willie" Jessup, who was Warren Jeff's body guard and chief enforcer.

You have to defeat the points made by people, you can't dismiss all points made by a person by asserting self interest. That is a logical fallacy called Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

Click the link to see why its invalid.
30 posted on 05/25/2008 10:39:32 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: Arkinsaw
I don't really give a flip about the FLDS members other than to be sure that they are treated like any American citizen and that no dangerous legal precedents are set because of emotion.

There you go being all reasonable. That'll get you called a child-rapist polygamy supporting monster around here these days.

This 'case' has been a tissue of lies on the part of CPS from the get go.

And the really sad thing is that the people who probably HAVE been committing some particularly heinous crimes will most likely get off scot-free because of CPS and Texas Ranger screwups.

L

31 posted on 05/25/2008 10:39:37 AM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR, to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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To: Lurker; All

Set.
Game.
Match.

The state of Texas is gonna have to hock the panhandle to pay for the lawsuits.

Not to mention so many heads are gonna roll, it’ll make a croquet convention look mild by comparison!


32 posted on 05/25/2008 10:43:14 AM PDT by djf
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To: Lurker
And the really sad thing is that the people who probably HAVE been committing some particularly heinous crimes will most likely get off scot-free because of CPS and Texas Ranger screwups.

I know. And if this all falls through then the real bad guys might get immunized in the future because authorities would be hesitant to reopen the can of worms even in valid cases.

By treating them all as a group, it allows the bad guys to trot out the most innocent and non-guilty parties to be in front of cameras.

This is bad decision-making on the spur of the moment that has created a huge mess.

I have no doubt there are legitimate targets here, but they are getting lost in the shotgun cloud handling of this thing.
33 posted on 05/25/2008 10:44:43 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: djf

Sb
Game
Set
Match

but my java ain’t kicked in yet!!!...


34 posted on 05/25/2008 10:44:44 AM PDT by djf
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To: Saundra Duffy
Saundra my dear, you're attempting to reason with a lynch mob.

L

35 posted on 05/25/2008 10:46:19 AM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR, to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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To: IIntense
The FLDS is just another sick cult which deprives men, women and children of a normal, free life.

"The Amish are just another sick cult which......."

"The Menonites are just another sick cult...."

"The Shakers were just another sick cult..."

"The Snake Handling Baptists are just...."

The Branch Davidians were just ...."

"The Jews are just......"

L

36 posted on 05/25/2008 10:48:34 AM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR, to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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To: Lurker

Jehovah’s Witness are a cult. Scientology too. Seven Day Adventist are a little strange. Definitely Muslims. Hindus too. Some, if not all Souther Baptist are whacked. Those Hari Krishna orange robes are a fashion disaster, so their kids have to be protected. And Mormons, well their beliefs are over the top. Catholics are definably a cult. And I’m sure we can all agree on what to do with the Buddhist kids. Evangelicals sometimes speak in tongues, and handle snakes.


37 posted on 05/25/2008 10:52:39 AM PDT by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: Arkinsaw
I have no doubt there are legitimate targets here,

Nor do I. But because this wasn't handled according the the required legal norms from the get-go, the entire case is in serious jeapordy of being thrown out entirely.

We now see nearly daily that CPS is forced to admit yet another lie on their part. Allegations they made that some person was 14 years old when she turns out to be 27 and had presented valid State ID from the get go is just the most recent one.

A good defense attorney, and the FLDS will be able to afford those by the gross, will have this thing tossed so fast it'll make the State of Texas' collective head spin.

And once the Civil suits start, it's Katy bar the door.

This is going to cost Texas tens of millions of dollars before it's over.

Someone said "they won't sue, it'll open them to Discovery." That's a crock. All the FLDS has to do is show that two or more CPS or Rangers discussed one thing, just one thing that deprived these FLDS people of their Civil rights. That's it.

The rest is irrelevant. Any competent Civil Rights attorney will have that line of questioning shut down before it begins.

The only issue in the inevitable Civil Rights trial will be "did the State of Texas violate the Constitutional Rights of any FLDS member during this affair."

Sadly, the answer to that question is "yes." Then it's game over, and "the Jury will retire now to consider damages."

CPS will be very lucky if some of what laughingly passes for their management doesn't find themselves in prison over this.

L

38 posted on 05/25/2008 10:56:48 AM PDT by Lurker (Islam is an insane death cult. Any other aspects are PR, to get them within throat-cutting range.)
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To: Drango
Jehovah’s Witness are a cult. Scientology too. Seven Day Adventist are a little strange. Definitely Muslims. Hindus too. Some, if not all Souther Baptist are whacked. Those Hari Krishna orange robes are a fashion disaster, so their kids have to be protected. And Mormons, well their beliefs are over the top. Catholics are definably a cult. And I’m sure we can all agree on what to do with the Buddhist kids. Evangelicals sometimes speak in tongues, and handle snakes.

I think the most interesting analogy is gun owners. If "many" gun owners committed murder....and if "many" children are killed by guns found in the home....then the children of gun owners might be reasonably be construed to be in "immediate danger" from gun-owning parents.

Gotta be careful in establishing increased government power to deal with specific disliked groups. The power then lies with those who decide which group is a target. You could be a member of a disliked group at some point which is always a good thing to keep in mind.
39 posted on 05/25/2008 10:58:34 AM PDT by Arkinsaw
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To: Lurker

“Saundra my dear, you’re attempting to reason with a lynch mob.”

Oh, yeah, I forgot. Ha! Thanks for the reminder. They have lost sight of the Constitution in their zeal to stomp out some kind of injustice . . . and I fear they think they are doing God a favor.


40 posted on 05/25/2008 8:31:23 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy (For victory & freedom!!!)
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