Plumbers Help

Me | 12/31/2007 | Bob

[Tennessee_Bob]

Logged in...check Beeber set on stune...check Shower taken...check Series subject...well, not really, but check Person from a sovereign state in Central Europe that existed from October 1918 (upon declaring its independence from the Austro-Hungarian Empire) until 1992...Czech

Ok, here's the question. I own a home built in 1944 as part of the Manhattan Project (some people have uniforms or vehicles or other militaria - I have a house). The government equipped this particular type of home (known as a Model 19, or locally as a Flat Top) with a hydronic heating system. A gas fired (used to be coal, I believe) low pressure boiler (hot water, not steam) with a thermostat and a circulation pump, pumps hot water through copper lines in the concrete slab. Of course, they didn't equip the homes with AC, but that's not the issue here.

There is a manifold that comes off the boiler and feeds the heating lines in the slab. There is a second manifold where the lines return to the boiler room. This return manifold has gate valves and petcocks on it. The gate valves are how you regulate heat in the various rooms, the petcocks allow that particular system to be drained.

At least, I think they are gate valves. I'm attaching a picture in the hopes that someone out there can look at it and say, "Oh, heck yeah, that's a 1944 model Breen and Blumenthal Ball Style Gate Valve," or something similar.

There's a marking on the top of the valve that as near as I can tell is an arrow of some sort indicating flow direction. Care to take a look and see what you think?

Before I go and start twisting valves back and forth, I thought it would be a good idea to have someone take a best guess at it. I've tried to research these homes, and so far, I've been able to find out who lived in it back in 1946, found a basic outline drawing of the home, but as far as any manuals or diagrams, forget it. Guess the layout is top secret or something.

Thanks in advance

Bob

[spunkets]

Those are like ball valves. You're right that those marks point in the direction of flow. I wouldn't go turning those unless you've got replacements. That valve comes apart by removing a nut on the bottom, (could be a spring clip). Then the valve shaft ass'y drops out the bottom. All that corrosion down there shows it has small leaks along the internal seals- the packing between the shaft and housing. If you attempt to move it, you'll break it all up on both the inside and out, and the valve most likely will start leaking a lot.

That's really a warm weather project. New valves are cheaper than attempting to dismantle, polish and repack those.

[B4Ranch]

I have seen those valves before, many years ago. I couldn’t find replacements which later turned out not to be a serious concern because the pipe was in such bad condition that I ended up replacing most of it.

Unless you have a pressure leak, I wouldn’t so much as take a wire brush to those valves just yet. They are in seriously sad shape and when it comes time for the work to be done, you will be replacing more than just the valves. Expect to replace nipples and possibly elbows. So gather up some soldering supplies.

Be sure to heat those joints before putting a wrench to them. Have you ever cut a nipple from inside to the threads then rolled (collapsed) it up. Looking at the elbows, that may be the best option to preserve the threads. That is if there’s any left.

If you are going to bid it out, I would take a lot of pictures, use mirrors to show the bottoms. Take close ups and further back so that the contractor has a good idea of what he’s bidding on.

Someone else suggested using a grey haired plumber. Let me move that up to a white haired one.

[djf]

That’s what I thought. Doesn’t look like a valve to me. Drain plug.

[B4Ranch]

Think of a valve with a spring on the outside (lower) that is adjusted with a screwdriver thru that top plug.

[djf]

Could be. Just that most of the times I’ve seen fittings like that (usually on old diesel mining equipment, etc), they were plugs, not valves.

I say hit it with liquid wrench, let er set for a day, then see how it turns!

[B4Ranch]

If it wasn’t the mans heating system, I’d agree.

[cva66snipe]

Your best bet is either install a Central unit {reliable dealer across from the county jail} or find someone who works in the city maintenance dept or maintenance in one of the plants. Looks like a cut off to me. Idea! Take your pictures over to MMC's maintenance department and let those guys see it. If it can be fixed they should know who can do it the cheapest.

But to be honest and realistic about the piping age I think you'd save money converting over. I know the houses your're talking about though.

[djf]

Hey, what’s the worst that could happen? It’s only like -12 degrees tonight in NY, right?

:-)

[cva66snipe]

Bob that valve is the pressure regulator IIRC. That is why the arrow is on it for direction of flow. It wouldn’t matter on an off on valve but either a check valve or regulator would though. From the looks of the pipes be real careful if you decide a self fix. I can’t even think locally who would carry a replacement. You might try Flatt Plumbing in Knox. All the companies I worked with locally were commercial system contractors. Somebody is still working on those systems locally though. I’d think there would still be a few units still going anyway.

[B4Ranch]

LOL

Yer cold a dude!

[peggybac]

ROFLMAO - I just spit out some Pepsi on my monitor.

[texas booster]

Between you and cva66snipe I expect that Bob will get a solid answer.

Have I mentioned that my plumber has retired here in Texas? One day I may be sending my own FReepmail to you guys ...

[oneolcop]

I’ve workd on a hydronic system a few times. By the look of the pipe connected to that ball valve, you should:

1)Wait till the weather warms up.
2) Go to rent-a-jack-hammer.
3) Send the wife & kids on a long vacation.
4) Jack-hammer out the concrete inside the foundation
5) Pour a nice new concrete floor.
6) Get a modern high efficiency gas furnace.

[Tennessee_Bob]

RE: 6) Get a modern high efficiency gas furnace.

The gas company is currently funding their retirement and equipment replacement programs through my gas bill. I’m becoming more and more convinced that I’m going to become a tree-hugger. If I can wrap my arms around it, it’s good enough sized to cut it down and use it for firewood. :)

[oneolcop]

LOL I beat the gas co by going propane. The first gallon , therm, whatever I buy costs the same as the last one. Plus, when the power goes out, I run my generator off the propane.

[ninonitti]

I’ve seen these valves used mostly for gas but ocasionaly for water. Be real careful with them because it looks like the manifold is iron pipe and the slab loops are copper so you may have some of that tinfoil hat dielectric action going on. They make electric zone valves that control the flow to the loops but it will take some work to redo the manifold to fit them. If the loops are still good might be time to look at one of those 90%+ new mini boilers (Munchkin, Trinity, Buderus etc). Happy New Year and good luck.

http://www.americanvalve.com/pdf/bronze/13.pdf

[cva66snipe]

RE: 6) Get a modern high efficiency gas furnace. The gas company is currently funding their retirement and equipment replacement programs through my gas bill. I’m becoming more and more convinced that I’m going to become a tree-hugger. If I can wrap my arms around it, it’s good enough sized to cut it down and use it for firewood. :)

I just thought of something else. If you do upgrade to a furnace you might have to go natural gas or propane. What I'm thinking is if the electrical service was never upgraded you might have a 60-100 amp service into your house. That would mean for an electric furnace you'd have to do a service re-wire {as expensive as the furnace} to bring it to code. On the other hand a gas furnace would only require enough power for the blower.

Before I tried to fix the old system I'd call around about securing parts. Lienarts {sp} maybe Johnstone supply {not sure on that one they change their type of inventory}, or you may have to order parts from out of state. A maintenance mechanic at the hospital or one of the older buildings in town might know. Try the school system also. IIRC I was near the high school a few weeks back and Shofner had a trailer back around Grove Center somebody there might have an idea.

The only other ones I can think of is KBM and they are mostly commercial oriented repairs but the owner is one of the most knowledgeable HVAC mechanics in this end of the state. All my experience was with water circ systems with pneumatic controlled valves on the coils and a heat exchanger coming off the boiler used in hospitals etc.

[Condor51]

*** Between you and cva66snipe I expect that Bob will get a solid answer.***

Thanks for the Ping and confidence :-)
And sorry for the late reply.

However, I'm a bit stumped.

• From the Top View pic at 1st glance it sure looks like a drain plug, but you don't put a drain plug on the top of a line. (kind of defeats the purpose)

• From the 2nd side view pic it looks exactly like the Gas Cock linked in post 36 by ninonitti.

  Also, Hydronics and 'Field Work' is not my exactly specialty in HVAC (I'm the 'V' (ventilating engineering) in HVAC). But if I saw that 'valve' on a Blue Print of the system design I could tell you exactly what it is. But from pictures, no.

All that being said, since the system is so old, I'd say your best chance of getting an expert for repair is a Plumber. In most areas of the U.S. Plumbing Contractors install Hydronic (hot water) Heating Systems.

The exception is Metro areas like Chicago & Cook county where by Union Rules it falls under Pipe Fitter jurisdiction. Out in the collar counties like DuPage it's back to the Plumbers.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
But there is ONE general rule in all Mechanical Disciplines we all follow -

If It Ain't Broke Don't 'fix' It.

And especially not in the dead of winter. Unless you have an emergency wait until Spring.

Good luck.

[cva66snipe]

It is weird looking. With the part on the bottom it looks spring loaded like a regulator. The markings on top look like off on marks though. I can’t tell but the stem body looks threaded too. The good news if he can determine the type and maker of the valve might be able to order a rebuild kit for it.