Posted on 08/07/2007 3:54:06 PM PDT by GodGunsGuts
Four Evidences of Cosmic Youth 08/04/2007
Astronomers and planetary scientists routinely talk in millions and billions of years. Three recent science news reports raise questions about how to fit apparently young objects into a vast timeline.
1) Lunar burps: The moon is passing gas, reported Science News). This explains the long history of observations of lunar transients, or bright flashes observed from Earth on certain parts of the moon. Arlin Crotts (Columbia U) believes the flashes come from the decay of uranium that escapes through cracks, but mentions the possibility that volcanism is still active.
2) Flinging rings: Saturns G-ring has been explained in an announcement from Jet Propulsion Lab (see also) Science Daily). A persistent ring arc in the outer bright rings, confined by the moon Mimas, gets swept by the magnetic field, flinging particles into the tenuous G-ring. (The G-ring lies between the thin F-ring and the broad E-ring fed by the Enceladus geysers; see 07/11/2006). The original paper in Science1 says, The dust-sized particles that dominate this rings optical properties should erode quickly in Saturns magnetosphere, yet there was no direct evidence for larger source bodies that could replenish the dust and no clear explanation for the concentration of such bodies in this one region. The article and original paper do not mention how long this has been going on, but presumably the material would have long been depleted well before millions of years, because collisions in the arc are steadily being ground to dust by collisions.
3) Bursting moons: Speaking of Enceladus, a recent paper in Icarus2 said that tidal flexing cannot explain the heat coming out of this small moon, either now or in the past:
"The heating in Enceladus in an equilibrium resonant configuration with other saturnian satellites can be estimated independently of the physical properties of Enceladus. We find that equilibrium tidal heating cannot account for the heat that is observed to be coming from Enceladus. Equilibrium heating in possible past resonances likewise cannot explain prior resurfacing events."
Meyer and Wisdom said that the neighboring moon Mimas, about the same size but closer to Saturn, experiences 11 times as much tidal heating but shows no sign of activity. In their conclusion, they wondered that both Io (at Jupiter) and Enceladus (at Saturn) are both so active:
"But it is curious that one has to appeal to nonequilibrium tidal oscillations or episodic activity to heat both Io and Enceladus (Ojakangas and Stevenson, 1986). If the fraction of time spent in an active state is, say, of order 20%, for each satellite, then the probability that both are found in an active state today is only 4%."
Cassini will fly by Enceladus at very close range on March 10 and even sample particles in the plume; see announcement in Space.com.
4) Veil unveilings: Portions of the wispy Veil Nebula in Cygnus have been photographed in detail by the Hubble Space Telescope. This highly-distended nebula is the remnant of a supernova explosion long thought to be tens of thousands of years old (see 02/16/2001). Now, a press release posted by Science Daily claims the explosion could have been witnessed and recorded by ancient civilizations as recently as 5,000 years ago.
Every once in awhile, it bears repeating: it is more empirically justifiable to infer young ages than old ages, because the observation-to-assumption ratio is much higher. You can take an observed phenomenon and extrapolate it backward from the present a bit that is reasonable. But to start with an assumption of billions of years and then try to fit a short-lived phenomenon into it lowers the observation-to-assumption ratio by many orders of magnitude. Would it be reasonable to observe a sparkler for 5 seconds, and then claim it has been burning for 100 years? We think science should tether itself to the observations rather than run amok like a stray dog.
1 Matthew M. Hedman, Joseph A. Burns, Matthew S. Tiscareno, Carolyn C. Porco, Geraint H. Jones, Elias Roussos, Norbert Krupp, Chris Paranicas, and Sascha Kempf, The Source of Saturns G Ring, Science, 3 August 2007: Vol. 317. no. 5838, pp. 653-656, DOI: 10.1126/science.1143964.
2 Jennifer Meyer and Jack Wisdom, Tidal Heating in Enceladus, Icarus, Volume 188, Issue 2, June 2007, Pages 535-539.
There is no refutation of evolution. Period
Nothing in the real world can be proved with absolute certainty. However, high degrees of certainty can be reached. In the case of evolution, we have huge amounts of data from diverse fields. Extensive evidence exists in all of the following different forms (Theobald 2004). Each new piece of evidence tests the rest.
* All life shows a fundamental unity in the mechanisms of replication, heritability, catalysis, and metabolism.
* Common descent predicts a nested hierarchy pattern, or groups within groups. We see just such an arrangement in a unique, consistent, well-defined hierarchy, the so-called tree of life.
* Different lines of evidence give the same arrangement of the tree of life. We get essentially the same results whether we look at morphological, biochemical, or genetic traits.
* Fossil animals fit in the same tree of life. We find several cases of transitional forms in the fossil record.
* The fossils appear in a chronological order, showing change consistent with common descent over hundreds of millions of years and inconsistent with sudden creation.
* Many organisms show rudimentary, vestigial characters, such as sightless eyes or wings useless for flight.
* Atavisms sometimes occur. An atavism is the reappearance of a character present in a distant ancestor but lost in the organism’s immediate ancestors. We only see atavisms consistent with organisms’ evolutionary histories.
* Ontogeny (embryology and developmental biology) gives information about the historical pathway of an organism’s evolution. For example, as embryos whales and many snakes develop hind limbs that are reabsorbed before birth.
* The distribution of species is consistent with their evolutionary history. For example, marsupials are mostly limited to Australia, and the exceptions are explained by continental drift. Remote islands often have species groups that are highly diverse in habits and general appearance but closely related genetically. Squirrel diversity coincides with tectonic and sea level changes (Mercer and Roth 2003). Such consistency still holds when the distribution of fossil species is included.
* Evolution predicts that new structures are adapted from other structures that already exist, and thus similarity in structures should reflect evolutionary history rather than function. We see this frequently. For example, human hands, bat wings, horse legs, whale flippers, and mole forelimbs all have similar bone structure despite their different functions.
* The same principle applies on a molecular level. Humans share a large percentage of their genes, probably more than 70 percent, with a fruit fly or a nematode worm.
* When two organisms evolve the same function independently, different structures are often recruited. For example, wings of birds, bats, pterosaurs, and insects all have different structures. Gliding has been implemented in many additional ways. Again, this applies on a molecular level, too.
* The constraints of evolutionary history sometimes lead to suboptimal structures and functions. For example, the human throat and respiratory system make it impossible to breathe and swallow at the same time and make us susceptible to choking.
* Suboptimality appears also on the molecular level. For example, much DNA is nonfunctional.
* Some nonfunctional DNA, such as certain transposons, pseudogenes, and endogenous viruses, show a pattern of inheritance indicating common ancestry.
* Speciation has been observed.
* The day-to-day aspects of evolution — heritable genetic change, morphological variation and change, functional change, and natural selection — are seen to occur at rates consistent with common descent.
Furthermore, the different lines of evidence are consistent; they all point to the same big picture. For example, evidence from gene duplications in the yeast genome shows that its ability to ferment glucose evolved about eighty million years ago. Fossil evidence shows that fermentable fruits became prominent about the same time. Genetic evidence for major change around that time also is found in fruiting plants and fruit flies (Benner et al. 2002).
The evidence is extensive and consistent, and it points unambiguously to evolution, including common descent, change over time, and adaptation influenced by natural selection. It would be preposterous to refer to these as anything other than facts.
Thanks for sending me your motto
So which bullet point would you like to start with?
==There is no refutation of evolution. Period
LOL...spoken like a true member of the Darwinist faithful.
How could the universe be young if it contains distances of 12 billion light-years?
I know, I know, the guy-in-the-sky made it that way. Brilliant
==How could the universe be young if it contains distances of 12 billion light-years?
And here I thought you were going to start off with a hard one. OK, do you understand “Big Bang” cosmology and Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity as it relates to gravitational time dilation?
Let’s see you math on this one. You must know something that went over Einstein’s head.
By creationists? Who don't know anything about science, or who deny what they do know? What a joke!
It is a religion that persists despite all the scientific evidence to the contrary.
Why don't you let scientists be the judge of what is and what is not science? Your religious zeal far outstrips your knowledge of science.
The articles you have posted lately have been either standard creationist nonsense, devoid of any meaningful science content, or good science articles which some creationist website thinks, in their glorious and sullen ignorance of science, may be the magic bullet to end the theory of evolution once and for all. In either case they, and you, just end up looking foolish.
Guillermo Gonzalez & Jay W Richards, The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos is Designed for Discovery
ha ha ha, I hope you and the coyote are around when your preposterous myth of darwinism comes tumbling down like freudism and marxism and all the other ridiculous isms we have forgotten about.
>>Would it be reasonable to observe a sparkler for 5 seconds, and then claim it has been burning for 100 years?<<
Actually with Doppler shifts we can tell the speed of stars.
With triangulation we can tell the distance to stars.
Using the speed of light we can tell how long the light had to travel to get here.
Putting all this together we can show that the light from some distant stars traveled a million years or more to get here.
You folks need to get your stories straight!
godgunsguts says "Darwinism" has already been refuted, and you say that that event has yet to happen!
You two argue out your differences, and the winner can get back to us, OK?
In the meantime, the rest of us will continue doing science.
Great post, muir_redwoods! I’d like to take a different tack and deconstruct the 4 points made by the article, from a scientific viewpoint.
1) Lunar burps: The moon is passing gas, reported Science News). This explains the long history of observations of lunar transients, or bright flashes observed from Earth on certain parts of the moon. Arlin Crotts (Columbia U) believes the flashes come from the decay of uranium that escapes through cracks, but mentions the possibility that volcanism is still active.
Locke’s comment: Sure - lunar transients have been observed for as long as humans have observed the Moon. Meteorite impacts undoubtedly cause many of these. If it is outgassing due to uranium, given that the half-life of uranium-238 is 4.5 billion years, it is not surprising at all that residual outgassing is still occurring on the Moon.
2) Flinging rings: Saturns G-ring has been explained in an announcement from Jet Propulsion Lab (see also) Science Daily). A persistent ring arc in the outer bright rings, confined by the moon Mimas, gets swept by the magnetic field, flinging particles into the tenuous G-ring. (The G-ring lies between the thin F-ring and the broad E-ring fed by the Enceladus geysers; see 07/11/2006). The original paper in Science1 says, The dust-sized particles that dominate this rings optical properties should erode quickly in Saturns magnetosphere, yet there was no direct evidence for larger source bodies that could replenish the dust and no clear explanation for the concentration of such bodies in this one region. The article and original paper do not mention how long this has been going on, but presumably the material would have long been depleted well before millions of years, because collisions in the arc are steadily being ground to dust by collisions.
Locke’s comment: Since our observations are not yet complete, there are many possible explanations for the replenishment of the particles in the G-ring - including occasional magnetic field interactions shifting material from the other rings and material deposition form solar coronal mass ejections. Just because we’ve made an observation that we don’t yet have the explanation for doesn’t mean we need to resort to making unwarranted assumptions that are not backed up by any empirical evidence.
3) Bursting moons: Speaking of Enceladus, a recent paper in Icarus2 said that tidal flexing cannot explain the heat coming out of this small moon, either now or in the past:
“The heating in Enceladus in an equilibrium resonant configuration with other saturnian satellites can be estimated independently of the physical properties of Enceladus. We find that equilibrium tidal heating cannot account for the heat that is observed to be coming from Enceladus. Equilibrium heating in possible past resonances likewise cannot explain prior resurfacing events.”
Locke’s comment: The above assumes that tidal friction is the only source of heating. Clearly it isn’t. Radionuclides in the crust of Enceladus could cause significant heating, as they do on Earth. It also could be residual heat left over from the formation of Enceladus or heat from a relatively recent impact event. Again, credulous people with no scientific training reading this article might think it sounds reasonable. In the light of science, it is quite farcical. Creationists always deliberately misinterpret the evidence, leave out important facts, tell outright lies, or make subtle distortions to make their point. They can never be honest because they will lose.
4) Veil unveilings: Portions of the wispy Veil Nebula in Cygnus have been photographed in detail by the Hubble Space Telescope. This highly-distended nebula is the remnant of a supernova explosion long thought to be tens of thousands of years old (see 02/16/2001). Now, a press release posted by Science Daily claims the explosion could have been witnessed and recorded by ancient civilizations as recently as 5,000 years ago.
Locke’s comment: It was estimated to have exploded 50,000 years ago. The science writer slipped a digit when they wrote from memory. Oh no! A misprint in a science article!! Evolution is thereby disproved!! Praise the Lord!!!
In the harsh light of reason, the article is exposed as the sham that it is. It’s a shame that credulous people believe such twisted lies.
I suppose you’ll now claim that this article “thoroughly refutes” all of the old universe theories as well.
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