Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old

WCCO-TV ^ | Friday, January 12, 2007 | Associated Press

[SunkenCiv]

Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years old, according to a published report... Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy historic preservation officer, said it may be among the oldest known archaeological sites in North and South America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all said the artifacts are genuine, she said... Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by windblown sediment, Mather said... [T]he site appears to be "much older" than the Clovis era of finely made spear points that defines the paleo-Indian period. The find is "startling enough that appropriate response from every archaeologist and glacial geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all say the artifacts are genuine.

[GoLightly]

When you say high hill, would you be talking a hill like a kame, a drumlin or something else?

I think those in the field defending "common knowledge" would have more of a problem with the position your friend has taken about this find than someone like me, who sees it as interesting & an opportunity to learn about things I may not otherwise delve into.

[gearheadmn]

Okay, you got me on the "high hill" thing. Or should I say that you lost me? I honestly have no idea what a kame or drumlin is and I am now realizing that "high hill" is a rather vague term which definition would be greatly dependent on an individuals personal experience with hills. Lets just say that a good portion of Minnesota has gentle rolling hills, with a few specific areas which tower over the rest. I don't know the exaxt elevation of the area in question in sea level terms but do know that it rises up quite a distance from the shore of Leech Lake.

And yes, the topic in general does pose many interesting questions for the experts and the layman.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks. I wasn't online yesterday, looks like everyone else kept busy, eh? ;')

[ForGod'sSake]

He holds no title other than "seeker".

Thanks for the quick bio. I might in fact be more inclined to cut him a little slack since he didn't receive his "formal" training from the indoctrination centers.

Still in all, his explanation creates some confusion in my simple mind...

Regards

[ForGod'sSake]

Where do you go when there's a tornado warning?

If it's light, I go outside and watch for it ;^) Not always possible or even advisable given the severity of the storm. I've seen several up close and personal. Almost drove into one after making a turn once, but a James Bond turnaround got me out of harm's way. Another time, I had to stop on the levee over Lake Houton to let a small one go by about a half mile or so in front of me. When I continued on, the place where it had crossed the highway was torn to a farethewell. Anyway, I suppose I treat tornado threats about the same as lightning: chances of us being in the same place at the same time are very slim.

At night, I say my prayers and listen for the hail that almost always accompanies tornado producing storms; no hail, probably no tornado. These storms are usually short lived, so they don't often interfere with my, er, beauty rest(which I need lots of).

[ForGod'sSake]

Since you live in an area where there seems to be a bit more leeway, they still get planted in the ground in your area, right?

Meant to answer this in the previous reply, but memory lapses call for additional work it seems. But no, six feet under is not a problem around these parts.

[GoLightly]

I'm just parking these links here. The second one is an animation of the pictures shown in the first one. I came across the links while looking to find the answer to my own question about the type of hill we're talking about.

http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/fact_sheets/glaciers.html#

http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/flash/glaciers/glaciation_animation.html


They're looking for volunteers...

Sixmile Hill Archaeological Excavation
Must commit to 1 full session; may participate in more

Archaeological testing completed thus far at Sixmile Hill indicates that the site was occupied during the earliest Woodland period, which may extend from 3000-1700 years ago in the Mississippi headwaters region. No earlier or later components have yet been identified, suggesting that this may be a single component site.

http://www.passportintime.com/currentprojects/Minnesota.html


The site is about 150 feet above Leech Lake. While investigating the path of the road, archaeologists came across a pit they thought might be related to the fur trade, said Thor Olmanson, director of the Leech Lake Heritage Sites Program and tribal archaeologist.


While I'm at it, "Point May Be Oldest Idaho Human Artifact"

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/tag/north+america#anthropologist691950


Since I'm wandering way off topic in this thread anyway, may as well throw this in for good measure, cuz it made me laugh. (Then again, I'm easily amused)

Is Finland in Scandinavia or not?
In Minnesota, the state with the most Americans of Scandinavian ancestry, this question is the stuff of great controversy.

Kate Parry, Star Tribune Reader's Representative

"It took many years in Minnesota for this lost Hoosier to gain even a rudimentary understanding of the subtleties of Scandinavian culture here -- where a meeting room full of silent people can mean a ferocious argument is underway."

http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/816992.html#cutid1

A share of my family lives in Minnesota. They must be among the more verbal Minnesotans, as their ferocious arguments are anything but silent.


Getting back on topic, this article seems to have more information, though nothing about that hill:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2007/01/13/mn/1min.txt

I gave up before I found my answer. Could be because of too many side trips. I've been to Minnesota a few times & wasn't paying too much attention to the landscape, cuz it looked a lot like Wisconsin's landscape to me.

Is the hill round or elongated? Does it have a name?

Anyway, this site has photos of "Glacial Features in the Midwest", so you can possibly see the difference between a kame & a drumlin. I think the examples on it are a lot better than the ones used at wiki.

http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~maher/air/air11.htm

[GoLightly]

You're right about the hail, though the one that snapped the center pole of the tent I was in when I was little wasn't announced by any hail. My previous post has a link with photos. The main page has pics of the Devils Lake area, which is where we were camping when I got a good look see at what a tornado can do. We were probably saved by the bluffs, cuz it hadn't quite touched down as it passed over us.

My house has gotten zapped by lightening a few times, so your tale of bravado doesn't inspire me. LOL

[Drammach]

All I am trying to say is, do a little bit more research on the subject before challenging these finds.

I'm sorry, did I challenge any findings?

Seems to me, my post noted the lay of the land a bit, and indicated another area of possible interest for archaeologists / anthropologists..

I will assume that your comments were directed generally, at previous comments and not to me specifically...

[gearheadmn]

GoLightly; you have been doing some research for sure, (with a few light hearted side trips). http://mrbdc.mnsu.edu/mnbasin/fact_sheets/glaciers.html#
On this site please note the positioning of the glaciers in relationship to the approximated age of the tools found. It seems to be a pretty close fit. http://www.passportintime.com/currentprojects/Minnesota.html
This link is talking about a different, (though similar), project quite a distance from Walker. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Matt is involved in this one also. http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/tag/north+america#anthropologist691950
Interesting. Idaho VS. Minnesota. Football anyone?http://community.livejournal.com/anthropologist/816992.html#cutid1
I'm not going to touch the Finlander/Scandinavian controversy.
Getting back on topic, this article seems to have more information, though nothing about that hill:
Check out: http://www.rlnn.com
It seems that the top of this hill is about 150 feet above the shoreline of Leech Lake.
http://www.geology.wisc.edu/~maher/air/air11.htm

Okay. Confession time. My 56K has been trying to load these kame and drumlin pictures for about 20 minutes. I give up.
I can assure you that this hill is much more dramatic than a kame, but the drumlin pic's haven't shown up yet.
For general reference sake, look up pictures of Lake Superior's North Shore north of Duluth, MN. This gives you a general outline of the type of hill but decrease the quantity of granite and add in a lot more trees along the slope. Hope this helps.

[gearheadmn]

Please trust me; this site is no gravel pit. The tools noted were found under several layers of varied strata in an area that has been mostly undisturbed for XXXXXX? years.

[gearheadmn]

BTW Drammach; I just took a look at your profile. You would probably like Matt, (and me), though he leans a little bit libertarian.

[gearheadmn]

Sorry Drammach. Yes my original comments were primarily directed at the overall discussion, not you in particular. I must admit that I have been out of the "posting" loop for a couple of years so my etiquette may not be up to par. Thanks for your patience.

[SunkenCiv]

Uh-huh.

[GoLightly]

You're not going to wade into the Finlander/Scandinavian controversy? No matter which way ya go, yA might tick off someone. LOL Least I didn't try to drag you into a discussion about Yoopers or Flatlanders. ;o)

Football has been a sore subject with me for the last few years & I've never paid much attention to college ball.

Kames tend to be higher than drumlins. See Figure 1.4.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/snas/naturalhistory.html

Glaciers had nothing to do with forming the highest hills in Wisconsin (Timm's Hill & Rib Mountain), though they helped make them more outstanding features than they would have been otherwise, when material around the base was carried away.

The hills around Duluth were made in a similar manner. The older, harder rock wasn't ground down, while swaths of softer sandstones at the base of the hills were dragged off by the glaciers.

http://duluthstreams.org/understanding/geology.html

When they build roads through a hill in some areas, you'll notice a rock face along the side of the road. They've blasted through a large rock outcropping & there's no need to build retaining walls to keep the material left behind in place. There's also no need to create a large slope away from the roadway.

When a hill is end moraine or a kame, the material under the surface of the hill will be mostly looser material. They'll either put up a retaining wall or slope the side away from the roadway.

When you're in the Walker area, what do the cuts through the hills look like? Are there gentle slopes away from the road or are there high rock walls?

[Ciexyz]

btt

[SunkenCiv]

Ancient stone tools chip away date of early humans' arrival
by Margaret Munro
National Post
Jan 16 1999
web archive version

Recently, Dr. Chlachula and his colleagues have discovered three more sites containing what they believe are preglacial stone tools. One set of choppers and scrapers, described in the current edition of The Canadian Journal of Earth Sciences, was found in a gravel pit near the town of Grimshaw in northern Alberta. The other tools were unearthed last summer at two locations west of Lethbridge. All of them, says Dr. Chlachula, indicate that humans roamed through the Prairies between 20,000 and 40,000 years ago... Dr. Richard Morlan, curator of paleo-environmental studies at the Canadian Museum of Civilization in Hull, Que., says he has no reason to doubt Dr. Chlachula. Few people in the world, says Dr. Morlan, can match the 36-year-old researcher's expertise. Professor Nat Rutter, the former head of geology at the University of Alberta in Edmonton, agrees, noting that Dr. Chlachula has three PhDs and extensive field experience in both old world and new world archaeology... Prof. Rutter, at the University of Edmonton, also has much confidence in his research skills. "Jiri's work embarrassed a lot of other people," he says, because it suggests that Canadian archaeologists have been looking in the wrong place for human artifacts and they should be hunting underneath glacial deposits. "They may not admit it," says Prof. Rutter, "but they're all out there looking now."