Tools Found In Walker, May Be 14,000 Years Old

WCCO-TV ^ | Friday, January 12, 2007 | Associated Press

[SunkenCiv]

Archaeologists have discovered stone tools atop a hill in this northern Minnesota town that may be 13,000 to 14,000 years old, according to a published report... Britta Bloomberg, Minnesota's deputy historic preservation officer, said it may be among the oldest known archaeological sites in North and South America. A half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all said the artifacts are genuine, she said... Mattson said the objects were found underneath a band of rock and gravel that appeared to have been deposited by melting glaciers and then covered by windblown sediment, Mather said... [T]he site appears to be "much older" than the Clovis era of finely made spear points that defines the paleo-Indian period. The find is "startling enough that appropriate response from every archaeologist and glacial geologist is skepticism." But, he added, a half-dozen archaeologists, soil scientists and others who have examined the site all say the artifacts are genuine.

[ForGod'sSake]

Thanks for the maps, but they don't really help explain how these artifacts could be found, in effect, under a glacier. Implied, is the fact these "tools" would had to have been on the site before the glacier formed. The only thing that makes any sense is that glacier(s) actually ebbed and flowed during the last glaciation and these tools would have been left behind during a "warm" period when the glaciers retreated before advancing again. Maybe that's a given; I don't know.

[GoLightly]

You raised a question that also came to my mind when I read the article. I'd looked for the glacier maps before I read your post & figured a good place to share the link was in my response to you.


"Though the lake's depth and size varied as the climate periodically warmed and cooled, causing the glacial ice to alternately retreat and then advance" / snip

"Advancing 200 feet a year, they were slowed only by mild summers in their many stages of retreat and advance over the last two million years."

http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/agassiz.htm


Wisconsin was also covered by glaciation:

"The retreat of the ice front was interrupted a number of times by readvances; the last one touched northwestern Wisconsin about 10,000 years ago."

http://www.nps.gov/archive/iatr/expanded/history.htm


So from a couple of different sources, the answer to your question would be possibly, yes. Younger Dryas event?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas


Deposits, like the stuff found in gravel pits are created near the edges of the glaciers. Hard to tell where the Fergus Falls & Leaf Hills Moraines were in relationship to Walker, MN, cuz I can't find Walker on the moraine map. The City of Fergus Falls is SW of Walker. (I'm thinking just under 100 miles)

http://www.co.otter-tail.mn.us/maps/agassiz-19.php


This isn't directed at you specifically, but I'm throwing it out there. I wondered where the huge lake created when the glaciers melted was in relationship to the site of this find. Lake Agassiz was northwest of the location. I could have sworn there was a big lake covering more of Minnesota, else, what formed those 10,000 lakes, rain, high water table? (I asked myself a question about how all of the freshwater fish were planted in the lakes in MN & WI during one of the numerous FR Crevo debates & came to the conclusion that many came from that big stinkin lake that doesn't seem to have covered the whole area afterall, giving me a new riddle.)

http://www.emporia.edu/earthsci/student/damery1/gl_form.html

Back to Minnesota & Lake Agassiz

Wiki article w/map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Agassiz

So how the heck do that lake way up north there drain into the Minnesota river, way down there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_River


Meanwhile, seems there's a claim of a "Skeleton of Minnesota Girl in clay deposited 20,000 years ago." Pelican Rapids, Minnesota is South & I'm thinking West Walker.

http://folsommuseum.netfirms.com/folsomman.htm

(sorry, just thinkin out loud here)

[SunkenCiv]

Hi, I think someone answered while I was napping (okay, I was at work), but basically, the conventional view is that glaciers spread out, and slowly push and drag other stuff. Ordinarily that would suggest this stuff came from further north. However, the quantity found in a small area sounds more like a seasonal camp (perhaps over many years) to my uneducated ear. :')

[ForGod'sSake]

Wow! Thanks for doing the work I didn't make the time to do. Your research efforts are appreciated. So it would seem that advances/retreats of the ice sheet could account for these artifacts' and their location.

Also:

I could have sworn there was a big lake covering more of Minnesota, else, what formed those 10,000 lakes, rain, high water table? (I asked myself a question about how all of the freshwater fish were planted in the lakes in MN & WI during one of the numerous FR Crevo debates & came to the conclusion that many came from that big stinkin lake that doesn't seem to have covered the whole area afterall, giving me a new riddle.)

FWIW, I've heard, I guess forever, the "10,000 Lakes" were formed by melting glaciers. I dunno; that's a lot of holes in the ground. And, aren't most of the lakes very shallow??? Anyway, these "lakes" would have dried up long ago without sufficient rain/snow to keep 'em filled, so who knows. In fact, the Minnesota River could have been a product of the melting ice sheet???

The faint blue outline is supposed to be the ice sheet ~15,000 years ago:

Also, seems I recall reading somewhere most of Lake Agassiz ultimately drained northward into what is now Hudson Bay, with some minor drainage to the south. That must have been a shock to the salt water system, eh?

Thanks again for your efforts.

[ForGod'sSake]

...the conventional view is that glaciers spread out, and slowly push and drag other stuff.

Good point; along with the grinding/scouring of the landscape -- to some depth??? The more I think about, the more their explanation doesn't seem to hold, er, water. Moving along...

[uglybiker]

So, these people were living under the glacier(s)?

Well, yeah. It's alot cheaper down there 'cuz you don't have the views.

[SunkenCiv]

Ice see what you mean.

[ForGod'sSake]

Well, yeah. It's alot cheaper down there 'cuz you don't have the views.

Heh. School district probably sucked too...

[GoLightly]

I did the research for myself, cuz I wanted to know. Figured if I was gonna take the time to do it, may as well share.

I forgot about aquifers. A lot of Wisconsin (and I assume Minnesota) lakes are spring fed. Other lakes are maintained by the level of the ground water. See simple diagram. :o)

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/earthgwaquifer.html

GROUND WATER ATLAS of the UNITED STATES
Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin
HA 730-J

http://capp.water.usgs.gov/gwa/ch_j/J-text1.html

[ForGod'sSake]

Icee?

;^)

[ForGod'sSake]

I forgot about aquifers.

That makes two of us. Still in all(and from one of your links), are replinished by precipitation. Fact is, the water table must be very near the surface in much of that area. Probably not many in-ground pools around; they might float.

[GoLightly]

Lack of in-ground pools has to do with the weather, not the water table. lol Most homes in this part of the country have a full basement. My well is almost 300' deep, which is slightly deeper than average for residential wells in this area. As long as you're not building on swampland, there's not much need to worry.

Parts of Milwaukee & Chicago were built on swampland. Milwaukee averages 634 feet above sea level, but "The Valley" is much lower. Chicago averages about 579 ft. Lake Michigan is at 577 ft (average), so you'd almost think Chicago would be underwater, but it's not, least not since the last time I checked. Chicago's earlier history shows that it had been a problem...

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/656/

There are some good graphs & info here about the Upper Fox Watershed:

http://pangea.stanford.edu/courses/gp104/waterscape/viewscaperk.php?entry=30

[Drammach]

The old stomping grounds of my mis-spent youth..

My grandparents (and other relatives) lived in Remer, MN, about 40 miles from Walker.. ( It is the county seat )

The whole area is sort of a cross between woodland and swampland.. There are numerous bogs, marshes, "potholes", streams, and more than a few quicksand pits in the area..
It is generally damp, even in summer, and mosquitoes are so thick in the evenings they can cover a man in seconds.. like a blanket..
If the mosquitoes don't get you, the woodticks will..

There is a historical Indian Mound in Wadena MN as well, used as some sort of gathering place.. ( religious, political ? )
It might be worth having some one checking out the history there as well..

[gearheadmn]

Okay, time for a little bit of friendly defense here. I know Matt Mattson and will attempt to subjectively answer some of the skepticism surrounding this find. One thing comes to mind when reading most of these posts; most of you have not read the WHOLE article, or read an incomplete version of the article. There are several versions floating around, as revealed by a thorough internet search of the subject. 1. This find was on a hill, a very high hill, next to Leech Lake, which has been documented by more than one source as a very active place of human interaction for many centuries. 2. Matt has studied northern Minnesota geology for over 30 years. I think he may understand more about the glacial movements and soil content than most people, (not necessarily all, okay). 3. Matt has been studying primitive tool making for over 20 years and, again, may understand more than most people concerning this subject. 4. These finds do indeed conventional wisdom concerning both glacial movements, and human development. They have not been made lightly nor without much introspection over an extended period of time. All I am trying to say is, do a little bit more research on the subject before challenging these finds.

[ForGod'sSake]

Lack of in-ground pools has to do with the weather, not the water table. lol Most homes in this part of the country have a full basement. My well is almost 300' deep, which is slightly deeper than average for residential wells in this area. As long as you're not building on swampland, there's not much need to worry.

Just an FYI re "floating pools" that might apply to those Chicage folks you mentioned from THE ILLINOIS DEPT OF yada yada:

The swimming pool should not be completely drained when the groundwater table is high because the empty pool may “float” out of the ground. In-ground pools are required to have hydrostatic relief valves which automatically open to let groundwater flow into the pool basin during the off-season. This prevents the pool from “floating” out of the ground.

And there are NO basements in this part of the country for the simple reason they would become indoor "swimming pools". We hit ground water at roughly 25' around here(shallower in some areas), and extra precautions have to be taken on, amongst other things, in-ground pools.

Your point re the weather is well taken however. They could be used as ice skating rinks during the "off" season??? And thanks for the additional links; interesting stuff.

[ForGod'sSake]

Since I have been a fairly vocal(when I discuss it at all) critic of the "scientific community" allow me to take a stab at your comments -- and welcome to FR.

In 25 words or less, way too much "junk" science has become mainstream, so you can certainly forbear some skepticism from the lay community? For the most part their craft is not so deep that it can't be understood by yer average couch potato if the "scientific community" wanted it understood. Their arrogance(?) precludes them from speaking to the unwashed? They might have to relearn English in lieu of the language of the trade. I suspect their (natural)ties to academia has contributed in large part to their attitude. We all know where most of academia stands these days, eh?

There's more but I already ran over 25 words so...

Again, welcome to FR.

FGS

[ForGod'sSake]

Oops, I should have added this part of the country as being the piney woods of East Texas. Sorry 'bout that.

[gearheadmn]

FGS; thanks for the friendly response. Matt could very well be considered a "renegade" member of the scientific community and most often not very fond of the "academia" which you now reference. His education is both formal and informal; more of it was gained working the soil of Minnesota, (and various other locales), than in a classroom. He holds no title other than "seeker".

[GoLightly]

Round here basements are common, cuz codes require at least 4 foot depth for footings. Footings need to be below the frost-line. Even a stoop that's adjacent to a house will have 4' deep footings, as will the floor of an attached garage. Anyway, by the time you've brought in equipment to dig down 4 feet, may as well go 8 or ten feet so you have a place for your furnace, water heater, not to mention storage for all of the crap that's just too good to throw away... yet. Besides, running plumbing through an unheated crawl space is just asking for burst pipes. (For seasonal homes, draining the pipes for winter is necessary.)

It's not a good idea to fully empty any pool for winter, even the above ground variety. The freeze/thaw cycle would also make the bottom of empty pools "float" upward & you'd hate to discover you'd built the thing over some huge boulder...

One of my relatives had a cottage & it was built many years ago, without footings to speak. Eventually, this huge boulder under it rose up under the kitchen floor. The center of the floor was inches higher than the edges, quite a memorable sight. Gardens in my area "grow" rocks in the winter.

I can see the value to having hydrostatic relief valves in pools where the water table is high. It wouldn't make much sense to have a sub-pump for that application.

Most pools have liners these days, even built in pools, so it's not the best idea to use them for ice rinks. It's better to just flood part of the yard. A thick slab of ice is unnecessary. If there's no natural low spot, a simple sand dam is usually enough to hold the water in long enough for it to freeze (most years).

They're building homes in places I know have less than 25' round here. Don't ask me how or if they have basements, cuz I don't know.

So, y'all live in an area where the water table prevents basements. Where do you go when there's a tornado warning? I lived through a tornado when I was 4, so they always kinda freak me out. I can't get to the basement fast enough when a warning is sounded. I set up supplies (TV, radio, flashlight, beverages) as soon as they notify us of a watch. The smallest room in the center of the house probably ain't gonna save you if the house gets hit.

[GoLightly]

I knew it was somewhere in Texas. ;o) I know they have to bury the dead above ground in some parts of Louisiana, cuz of the water table. Since you live in an area where there seems to be a bit more leeway, they still get planted in the ground in your area, right?