Posted on 07/22/2006 10:43:33 PM PDT by numapompilius
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/
"Fools are sometimes correct, but you would have to enjoy an unrivalled ignorance to so smugly claim that someone you never met is ignorant."
I don't believe you've met me either, but that didn't stop you.
i just said that you enjoyed ignorance, as your triggy-happy condemnations of several longstanding FReepers has show.
Yes, this has been mentioned before, but no one has provided any textual evidence.
My original question asked for chapter and verse. A South African website imam's reserved "yes" to a question about the admissibility of citizenship oaths does not a holy scripture equal.
"i just said that you enjoyed ignorance, as your triggy-happy condemnations of several longstanding FReepers has show."
I "enjoy ignorance"? Is that is? Are you going to claim that a longstanding FReeper is automatically right by virtue of time in office? I believe that's a logical fallacy.
no, but when someone who has been on FR for less than a week attacks citizens in good standing, a certain "local knowledge" is willfully ignored.
also, telling me that i know nothing of islam when my posting history reveals otherwise. you may not like my opinions, but i think it's clear that i have a fairly good handle on the facts.
You can choose your own battles. For what it's worth, the account that posted this thread was suspended. Probably because the thread advocated a willful disregard of the Constitution and basic ideas of citizenship and humanity. You might think that Muslims all have their fingers crossed on the Fourth of July, but the Muslim Americans I know all love their country and fellow citizens. Between them and some of the posters on this thread, it's only the latter group that has advocated violence against Americans.
Haven't bothered to read your posting history.
Not a problem. But don't call me ignorant if you chose to remain ignorant about me.
but you do seem to defend them quite often.
I defend my friends and countrymen against people who consider them un-American or subhuman because of their beliefs.
Couple that with your use of the Qu'ran [sic]affectation....
I never used "the Qu'ran affectation" but you did take issue when I wrote "Qur'an". Since you yourself said it was the correct spelling, I'll ask you again: What do you have against spelling (transliterating, really) proper nouns correctly? Do words have any meaning for you?
but they are based on reading the "Qu'ran" and seeing just how Islam behaves in this world.
It is my impression that you have seen how Muslims behave in parts of the world and use their acts to tar all Muslims. Websites like LGF serve a purpose, but if you, like the thread's originator, see their aggregation of crimes committed by Muslims as a "snapshot" of the faith, you've been digesting news that not unlike Iranian and Cuban government propaganda that tar America as an "immoral" and "racist" country based on a few acts that are expections rather than rules. LGF et al offer a roundup of bad things that Muslims have done (of which there are many, but then again, there are many Muslims too and many of them are honest, upright, decent people that you will never read about on those websites) rather than how "Islam behaves in the world".
If you want non-Muslims to view Islam more favorably or even respect it, then the ball is in your court.
First and foremost, I want people to stop trying to run my friends and fellow Americans out of their country and/or kill them. And indeed, the ball is in my court. I'll stand up for my fellow Americans. You, on the other hand, are standing against them. I won't back down.
"Probably because the thread advocated a willful disregard of the Constitution and basic ideas of citizenship and humanity."
The thread advocated Islam?
"I defend my friends and countrymen against people who consider them un-American or subhuman because of their beliefs."
Actually, it's the teachings of the Koran that define non-Muslims as subhuman. To be specific - apes and pigs. That's how they refer to the Infidel.
"Since you yourself said it was the correct spelling, I'll ask you again: What do you have against spelling (transliterating, really) proper nouns correctly? Do words have any meaning for you?"
It's not THE correct spelling. There isn't one in English.
"It is my impression that you have seen how Muslims behave in parts of the world and use their acts to tar all Muslims. "
What part of the world was the Beltway Sniper from? I can point to more. It's not that Muslims are evil, it's Islam that is. Just as Germans weren't evil, but Nazism was.
"First and foremost, I want people to stop trying to run my friends and fellow Americans out of their country and/or kill them."
Actually, it's Islam that wants to kill us.
"And indeed, the ball is in my court. I'll stand up for my fellow Americans. You, on the other hand, are standing against them. I won't back down."
Islam deserves no respect for the simple reason it hasn't earned any. I'll stand against any ideology that seeks to replace the Constitution with something like Shariah. What was it their prophet said? Oh, yes. "Islam is to dominate and not to be dominated."
If you aren't Muslim, you really ought to try to get past this multicultural view you have of Islam as just another "authentic" 3rd world belief system. A Muslim can be a good person. A Muslim can be a good and loyal citizen. Some only culturally identify themselves as "Muslim". Some do not understand Arabic, the language the Koran is taught to many non-Arab Muslims. I thought as you appear to... just another religion. Hijacked, perhaps. After 9/11, I read their book.
However, as the UK has discovered, all it takes is a religous revival to return them to the "authentic" violent Islam. So say the Hadiths, for what it's worth. Mohammad is set upon a pedestal as the greatest of men, but the example he sets is one of a thief, a murderer, and rapist. I won't even bring up the subject of Ayesha, but that's their "example". Islam shows us what it really is everyday - and its not just "those people in the Middle East", but all over the world. The Ummah is at war with the West. They define us as the "World of War"...
Toleration of the intolerant alien is not a survival instinct for a culture.
This is a partial quote of 4:141 and it refers specifically to Judgment Day. Do you expect a faith's holy scriptures to favor unbelievers in the afterlife? Perhaps an updated John 14:6 is in order:
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me, or not by me, or by a golden calf, or by the Emperor of Rome. Whatever.
I doubt it.
"This is a partial quote of 4:141 and it refers specifically to Judgment Day. "
Uh, no. The line above it refers to Judgement Day, but not the entire passage. It does NOT refer to the afterlife.
What of 4:144?
Well, you should know, since you were "attempting to defend the originator of the thread" from unwarrented attacks. (#128)
Actually, it's the teachings of the Koran that define non-Muslims as subhuman. To be specific - apes and pigs. That's how they refer to the Infidel.
Chapter and verse.
It's not THE correct spelling. There isn't one in English.
I spelled it correctly (to quote you again: ""Qur'an" or "Koran" are all correct." #117). You seem to have a fair command of the dictionary. What do you have against me spelling proper nouns correctly? If there is no proper spelling in English (contradicting your post #117), then would any combination of letters suffice? And in that case, do words have any meaning for you? I hope to get your response this time.
Apples and oranges. Followers of Islam are Muslims. Followers of Nazism are not necessarily Germans. If you believe Islam is evil, you believe Muslims are evil. If you don't believe that Muslims are evil, you need to re-evaluate your position on Islam.
Actually, it's Islam that wants to kill us.
It's obvious that some Muslims want to destroy America. But all Muslims don't, and if all Muslims don't want to destroy America, then it can't be a tenet of Islam, can it?
I'll stand against any ideology that seeks to replace the Constitution with something like Shariah.
You mean any ideology where religious identity is more important than guilt or innocence when judging and punishing the accused?
A Muslim can be a good person. A Muslim can be a good and loyal citizen.
You jumped in here with a dubious "quote" of "scripture" (which was actually an internet imam based in Camperdown, KwaZulu-Natal, South Africa (pop. approx. 1,000)) and took from it the idea that a Muslim (any Muslim) can swear loyalty to a country but "can't mean it". (#108)
Mohammad is set upon a pedestal as the greatest of men, but the example he sets is one of a thief, a murderer, and rapist. I won't even bring up the subject of Ayesha, but that's their "example".
If that's the way you feel, don't take Muhammad as a role model. However, my Muslim friends have a different reading than you do and do strive to follow the example set by Muhammad. Since none of them are thieves, murderers or rapists, I would say that works for them. I hope you are also not a thief, murderer, or rapist. But I can only speak for the people I know.
Islam shows us what it really is everyday - and its not just "those people in the Middle East", but all over the world.
I would like to make sure you don't think you're quoting me. I never mentioned the Middle East -- you did. Sure, the Beltway Sniper was from here. I never said that there weren't bad Muslims in the United States. There are plenty of bad people in the United States. That's why we have law enforcement. What I said was that sites like LGF publish stories of crimes committed by Muslims but don't share any stories that relate to how the bast majority of Muslims spend their days. No stories about Muslim parents watching their kids' T-ball games. No stories about about Muslim students learning how to read and write. No stories about Muslim workers building a house or planting a field. No stories about Muslim grandparents playing with their grandchildren. You seem to be basing your opinions on news reports of Muslims only doing bad things. And if you are, it's easy to see why. There are a lot of terrible things happening in places where there are a lot of Muslims and there are plenty of stories out there that bigots can use to support their claim that Islam and Muslims are evil. If I wanted to play devil's advocate to the devilish Charles Johnson, I could start a blog with 5-10 articles a day about incidents of domestic violence in American alone. It wouldn't be proof that all Americans beat their kids, but anyone who wanted to believe such a like (such as, say, the Iranian government) would have ample evidence to support their ridiculous claims.
Yes, it clearly refers to God's preference for believers over unbelievers during Judgment Day. Here's 4:141, from the U of Michigan's online Humanities Text Initiative (www.hti.umich.edu):
4.141 Those who wait for (some misfortune to befall) you then If you have a victory from Allah they say: Were we not with you? And i[f] there IS a chance for the unbelievers, they say: Did we not acquire the mastery over you and defend you from the believers? So Allah shall Judge between you on the day of resurrection, and Allah will by no means give the unbelievers a way against the believers.
You might think that this isn't referring to the afterlife, but the part about divine judgment and a day of resurrection sounds is unambiguous.
What of 4:144?
[4.144] O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?
Sounds like an exhortation not to prefer the company of unbelievers to the company of one's co-religionists. I don't see a big problem here, just an attempt to keep a community of believers together in their faith. Isn't that the purpose of a religion (from the Latin religare, "to bind together), to bring people closer to God and, through communal religious practices, closer to each other? It doesn't say that you can't befriend nonbelievers, just that you shouldn't do it at the expense of the community.
Now, deport all Muslims from the United States, there's an exclusionary policy.
Ahhh....the recently signed-up bigots.
Well, I notice the mods got rid of one. That's a start.
Sure, the Beltway Sniper was from here. I never said that there weren't bad Muslims in the United States. There are plenty of bad people in the United States. That's why we have law enforcement. What I said was that sites like LGF publish stories of crimes committed by Muslims but don't share any stories that relate to how the bast majority of Muslims spend their days. No stories about Muslim parents watching their kids' T-ball games. No stories about about Muslim students learning how to read and write. No stories about Muslim workers building a house or planting a field. No stories about Muslim grandparents playing with their grandchildren. You seem to be basing your opinions on news reports of Muslims only doing bad things.
Well said.
BTW don't expect to change Peisistratus's mind (or anyone in the Nuke Mecca crowd, stupidity is a very powerful force). The only reason I (and some othere) do it is so when a Muslim comes and lurks here he/she see's some of us speaqking the truth. Does Islam have problems? OH BOY does it! But articles like this only provied ammo to our (Americans) enemies. I can't prove it as I don't speek arabic, but it would not su[rise me in the least if articles like this end up being quoted on jihadist web sites.
"Chapter and verse."
Suras 2:62-65, 5:59-60, and 7:166
"What do you have against me spelling proper nouns correctly?"
Adding the apostrophe is an affectation, that's why.
"Followers of Islam are Muslims. Followers of Nazism are not necessarily Germans."
"Muslim" is not a national or ethnic group. German is.
"You mean any ideology where religious identity is more important than guilt or innocence when judging and punishing the accused?"
Actually, that is the Muslim approach. Let me guess, you would treat the War on "Terror" as a law-enforcement exercise, right? Just like Kerry.
"However, my Muslim friends have a different reading than you do and do strive to follow the example set by Muhammad."
My view of Mohammad is BASED ON MUSLIM SOURCES.
"You seem to be basing your opinions on news reports of Muslims only doing bad things."
That's a pretty large list. In fact, point to one conflict in the world not involving Muslims?
"There are a lot of terrible things happening in places where there are a lot of Muslims and there are plenty of stories out there that bigots can use to support their claim that Islam and Muslims are evil."
Oh, that's funny. Really. Of course all those Muslims "charities" in the United States are just funding "widows and orphans", and not jihad. Oh, wait. The FBI continually shuts them down for doing exactly that. Our claim, BTW, is not that Muslims are evil, but that ISLAM is. That's clear from the Koran and Hadiths.
"So Allah shall Judge between you on the day of resurrection, and Allah will by no means give the unbelievers a way against the believers."
In my translation, that last is a seperate sentence.
"I don't see a big problem here, just an attempt to keep a community of believers together in their faith. Isn't that the purpose of a religion (from the Latin religare, "to bind together), to bring people closer to God and, through communal religious practices, closer to each other? It doesn't say that you can't befriend nonbelievers, just that you shouldn't do it at the expense of the community."
Actually, there are more references to this in the Koran:
To wit: "Do not take Christians and Jews as friends, for they are friends only with each other." 5:51
For the rest of you, its just a lovely peaceful faith that is practiced by nice people who wish us the best and don't persecute members of other faiths and other minorities in their home countries. The Aztec religion was just misunderstood too. Now, go back to sleep.
"Now, deport all Muslims from the United States, there's an exclusionary policy."
I'd start with banning further Muslim immigration and removing any visa preferences for citizens of Saudi Arabia and the UAE until the end of this conflict. This is a war, just as the President has said. We cannot continue to treat this as a law enforcement exercise to round terorists up only after the fact. As the so-called "moderates" (real ones have to hide) choose to support and stand with the enemy of my civilization, I feel quite comfortable looking upon their ideology with something less than the respect I regard peaceful religions. We should look to Europe to see just what our future holds in this regard.
Mosques , particularly Saudi-funded ones, are being used to preach Jihad - which amounts to sedition. Imams are actively converting prisoners in our prisons, as Islam appeals to the disaffected.
You really ought to watch their television, courtesy MEMRI.
[2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.
[2.63] And when We took a promise from you and lifted the mountain over you: Take hold of the law (Tavrat) We have given you with firmness and bear in mind what is in it, so that you may guard (against evil).
[2.64] Then you turned back after that; so were it not for the grace of Allah and His mercy on you, you would certainly have been among the losers.
[2.65] And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
[2.66] So We made them an example to those who witnessed it and those who came after it, and an admonition to those who guard (against evil).
Jews and Christians who follow the laws of the Torah ("Tavrut" above) will have their reward in the afterlife. And God made those who ignored these laws "despised and hated" like apes, as an example to the rest. It says nothing about Jews or Christians being apes. Based on God's punishment of Pharoah's army in Exodus, would you say the Bible claims that all Egyptians are underwater?
[5.59] Say: O followers of the Book! do you find fault with us (for aught) except that we believe in Allah and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed before, and that most of you are transgressors?
[5.60] Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.
This seems to be exhorting Jews and Christians to accept God's word revealed to Muhammad. It compares Satanists to apes and swine. Would you say that Jews and Christians are the same as Satanists?
[7.165] So when they neglected what they had been reminded of, We delivered those who forbade evil and We overtook those who were unjust with an evil chastisement because they transgressed.
[7.166] Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.
[7.167] And when your Lord announced that He would certainly send against them to the day of resurrection those who would subject them to severe torment; most surely your Lord is quick to requite (evil) and most surely He is Forgiving, Merciful.
Again, nothing about Jews and Christians being apes and swine. It does say that those who acted wickedly were "(as) apes, despised and hated".
The apostrophe is the proper ASCII transliteration of the Arabic letter hamza. If you know of a more accurate way to represent the letters qaf, ra', hamza, alif and nun, please let me know.
"Muslim" is not a national or ethnic group. German is.
Exactly. It was accidently cut out of my earlier post, but you've made it clear that Muslims:Islam::Germans:Nazism is apples:oranges.
Actually, that is the Muslim approach. Let me guess, you would treat the War on "Terror" as a law-enforcement exercise, right? Just like Kerry.
I believe in the rule of law and as such, laws should be enforced and people should be punished when they commit a crime. When you want to expel law-abiding Americans because they are Muslims, you are treating them the same as law-breaking nonresident aliens. A hardworking Pakistani-American auto mechanic should have more protection under the law than a (nominally Christian) Salvadorian gangbanger.
The War on Terror is trying to find terrorists and stop them, and more importantly, trying to prevent people from being terrorists. As Valin pointed out, this "deport all Muslims" rhetoric only hurts us in the war on terror because it gives truth to bin Ladin's lie that the United States is a force against Muslims.
My view of Mohammad is BASED ON MUSLIM SOURCES.
My friends' views of Muhammad are also based on Muslim sources. If your view is more violent and disreputable than theirs, perhaps it is your fault and not that of the sources.
That's a pretty large list. In fact, point to one conflict in the world not involving Muslims?
Oh yeah, its a long list. Like Valin said, Islam has a lot of problems. With a billion people though, you have to expect a lot of problems.
And yeah, there are plenty of conflicts not involving Muslims. The Congo war is the best example. It has caused more deaths than any conflict since World War 2.
The "Myanmar" junta's despotic rule is a non-Muslim conflict, and the rebel army in Shan state is not led by Muslims nor do they comprise a significant number of its soldiers. The continuing Chinese occupation of Tibet and Robert Mugabe's war against his own Zimbabwe are more examples. The narcomilitias in Colombia and the simmering resentment between Fijians of Indian and Polynesian ancestry don't involve Muslims. The political tensions between Guaynese of African and Indian descent do have some Muslims, but they're largely allied with the Hindus. The IRA and the ETA are terrorist groups that claim to be (and appeal to) devout Catholics. Did I mention North Korea?
Our claim, BTW, is not that Muslims are evil, but that ISLAM is.
If you believe Islam is evil, then you necessarily believe that those who follow Islam, that is to say Muslims (derived from the Arabic personal prefix mu- and the triliteral root S-L-M that forms "Islam"), are evil. So you are claiming that Muslims are evil. And you're wrong.
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