The ***OFFICIAL*** Weekend Singles' Thread -- Dear Abby/Dolly (June 2-4, 2006)

DollyCali & all the SUPER singles at FR | June 2, 2006 | Dear Abby/Dolly

[DollyCali]

Welcome
to
Counseling

Dear Abby/Dolly will be a 3-4 times a year part of our Weekend singles Thread. Questions will come from YOU. Answers will come from Me… and you on the thread. Please kick in with your thoughts, disagreements, and personal stories. We can learn from each other.. And now.. ON WITH THE SHOW!

Whew.. There are a boat load of questions & “situations” here which I will try to address.

Good mental health involves being comfortable in one’s skin (even if it is less than perfect, ugly, repulsive, fat, skinny, deformed). Take a look at drop dead BEAUTIFUL models & actresses who just think the very same thing you do. Also take a look at some very unattractive people in life who are successful & very happily married. .

Low self esteem can be very complex. The REAL you.. is what real attraction SHOULD be about. Everything you mentioned you don’t like, COULD be changed and improved upon perhaps. (I wouldn’t recommend MAJOR efforts here initially). I would recommend changing how you look at these things. Easier said than done. There are self esteem support groups that are free & beneficial if you REALLY make a goal of working at it.

Unfortunately our society & media & advertising has sold us a bill of goods about what “attractive” is.. We all unfortunately buy into it. Playboy. - People - Cosmo magazines do well don’t they? A magazine featuring below average or UGLY people would NOT do as well. .

A person who will reject you for these things will NOT be a good partner. Sometimes that is the beauty of the NOW Internet. It often affords people, weeks, months and longer to get acquainted & know, like & yes, LOVE the person.. before seeing the body, hair, face etc.. Youth & maturity don’t always go hand in hand. So many first relationships & marriages fail because people are attracted for the wrong reasons! Think of all the high school cheerleaders & football players along the way. .

I am guilty of being attracted to attractive also.. I truly don’t know of anyone who has a goal to find the homeliest partner possible do you? But men I have cared deeply about(yes even loved) and truly respected are usually NOT the lookers in life. Men & women both who are overly attractive sometimes have different baggage. It is a toss up. .

Now what can you do along the way (in addition to the support group)? EXERCISE & EAT PROPERLY.. that might help get your body slimmer, firmer, shapelier. Swimming & heavy duty hiking are two ways to accomplish this but have the ADDED dimension that they give you “process time”. When one works out (I call it play) you kick in a set of chemicals that help you look at things more objectively. You also work off stress & tensions in life. .

Have your hair analyzed by a pro. If $$ are limited go to the nearest beauty college(much reduced rates),They use advanced students but ALWAYS under the guidance of long term pros. Some flattering cutting & highlights will give you a lift. .

SMILE.. I have found that often when I see someone with a BIG smile, I forget what they look like.. I remember them as happy-- not ugly/pretty. Don’t notice their skin color or race even at much. Know what I mean? .

Sometimes folks with low self esteem, tend to scowl & be dour in presentation. Talk about UGLY! Keep in mind that your self image will be self fulfilling in the persona you imagine.. The energy will be transferred. Confidence glows (and too much stinks BTW) .

Now the last point for discussion here is the toughest & only you can reflect & perhaps fix. Are YOU on purpose NOT doing all you can in a self sabotage effort (subconscious of course). ? Fear of intimacy will manifest itself in many ways. Outward hostility, indifference toward people who “come on “ to you & the physical” letting one self “go” (gain weight, let hair become unkempt, poor hygiene, crummy dress). This is a very common situation is married couples. To avoid sexual contact they do this. Men in early stages of prostate problems have a fear of intimacy not wanting to be embarrassed if they can’t perform & some women are playing back “old tapes” from before they can even consciously recall.. about All MEN are animals.. just want one thing!”.. It happens very subtly. The bottom line is that all this is NOT done consciously.

See previous question/answer in part. . I guess I would ask the reason for considering doing this? Again is it to fit a mold/image of beauty/youth? To attract someone special you have your eye on? Robert Redford & many other stars have said “NO” to these things.. but look at Elizabeth Taylor.. does she look 74? Are you just not happy again – IN YOUR SKIN?

This is a very personal & important question. For some folks correcting a “hideous” nose, getting those Dumbo ears flat, or taking care of some major “flaw” as they perceive it, removing scars from burning… and it can be a major improvement not only physically, but emotionally & mentally. It. makes all the difference in the way as to how they perceive themselves & thus the image they project.

Again you will project what your self image is. Very few people will like or be attracted to a person who does not like themselves. I don’t fault folks who can afford the procedures & aren’t compulsive regarding the appearance.

I have a family member who gets cosmetic procedures done several times a year. She is fanatic about youth. Her husband is VERY handsome & I think she is really afraid of losing him. She isn’t the smartest cookie in the jar & so I suppose she feels this is essential. I think the money would be better spent taking some enrichment classes at a junior college.. but that is just ME.

Fidelity is a choice. It is a harder choice for some than others. There are reasons why people can & cannot easily be faithful. OLD TAPES is one consideration. Children whose parents had infidelity in the past might NOT like that fact.. but they will often adopt that subconscious value. .. ala.. well, dad is /was a good guy, even though. Etc.

A moral grounding & religious set of values will determine how one will adjust. The Judeo-Christian Ethic of Monogamy profoundly affects & guides many in life.. BUT, alas ones who REJECT God & Religion will not have that value structure as boundaries. .

The definition of what you think “happy” is. You may have again (old tapes) seen your parents or other adults in less than happy “committed” situations & again subconsciously said.. woe, not for me. .

A committed relationship / for better or for worse is VERY hard work. If one is selfish along the way..IT WILL BE VERY DIFFICULT. .

A Happy Couple & Being Selfish do NOT GO TOGETHER.

Maturity & learning what you REALLY want is important. If sharing life & its goals & dreams with a partner is appealing to a person, they will have an easier time.. Having Children & growing old with a loving partner is an ideal that is hard to accomplish for the self centered individual. If your parents made you think the world revolved around you, you will expect your partner to be the same. You must get LOTS of attention & need & demand it. .

Very few women will do this after the intial “flurry of courtship” & thus men will see more women to give them the emotional & mental strokes they need. Normally early in a relationship on will have the other party be the “center”. In time that changes.. that is often the time the man realizes “gee, I just can’t be happy with just this ONE woman” .

Get it?. .

The playboy, non-committed, take & don’t reciprocate mentality is presented as attractive but basically the people I have known & read about are quite lonely. They are busy & social but that does not mean they are NOT lonely. .

You can be in a room or party with dozens of people & be very alone and yes VERY lonely. .

My suggestion is for you to deeply analyze your core values. .The fact that you are questioning indicates a good thing. This is what Mid-Life is all about. Most people just ooze into adult hood adopting the religious, social, ethical & moral values of their family/parents. That MAY or may NOT be good. Midlife is when you examine all of this & either except it as your own, modify it Or reject it totally. What you then CHOSE is the new you & you are now authentic. You may in fact draw back to most of values of the family of origin. A crisis doesn’t always happen. Ideally this will happen in your mid 30s. Some go to their grave never doing this.. they are always a bit “stirred up in their soul” and aren’t sure why. Part of them feels guilty to question the family values & structure.. (mom’s guilt 101?) .

I think you need to restate your question.. Why do I choose women who are deceitful? Or gossip? .

Many women could write the same question, no doubt. .

I basically don’t think women lie anymore than I think men do. Some do, some don’t. People lie basically for different reasons.. one reason is..when they have low self esteem & they try to portray that they are “better”, have done more, know important people.. etc. .

People often lie for attention.. they become victims, have pity parties, .

Again being comfortable with who you are & in your skin as I like to say. .

Try to find people with good self esteem.. DON’T get involved romantically too quickly with someone before you know them well. Men & women both make the mistake of going hot & heavy in the physical relationship (love those hormones) before they know very much about the person. .

Some will lie to cover up something embarrassing from their past. . On a first meeting or date we normally don’t sit down & put the worse possible foot forward & drag out all the dirty laundry. As you get acquainted you then often don’t want to muddy the water.. Ah, the sins of omission in relationships huh?

We all need to strive to be honest about who we are, our shortcomings & find people who will accept who we are. . I love reading FReeper Profiles. Some in their profile mention they have been in jail /prison. How refreshing. HONESTY that is embarrassing. It is very important that you share pertinent info on medical problems that will affect your life. Do you have AIDS, Herpes, diabetes, MS.. ??? None of these have to be relationship killers, but it is so good to early on find out if you are loved & accepted for the real you. Bad news as well as good news.

I have found two areas where men try to impress (and I am sure women do this also). They find out your interests etc & show you how good they are at the skill etc. I have a background in theology & also am a REAL outdoorsy person. It takes about 10 minutes in the woods to know if I am with someone who has been honest or not. I don’t reject the person if they are not a mountain goat.. but certain things cannot be fudged. Also getting into religious discussions.. well, wont belabor.. but DON’T pretend you are something you aren’t. Unless the person you are dealing with has the IQ of a slinky, they will find you out very quickly. .

In my experience people, men & women, who gossip are those needing attention. By giving you “juicy tidbits” they are in their minds vital & important in what they are stating. In some respects they will gossip(some truth some maybe not) to make themselves look good/better. By telling all the bad things about John Doe, don’t I look better to you???? People who gossip or tell “tall tales” often have parents who are the same. It is hard work to overcome this.

Even though this is directed at understanding the other person, take it to heart & examine if this might apply to you? Tall tales & Gossip are not good couple strengthening material. .

. Well, I am not sure I saw a question there but maybe a statement & sigh????

So I will share some misc. thoughts on the topic. So many share the struggle with parents.

Part of this maybe means they did their job well? Give em roots BUT give em wings etc? . Part of their mentality MIGHT just be to keep you crazy so you don’t desire to live with them until you are 40?

Okay, now to look a bit more deeply & seriously.

There are two sad situations.(1) Kids(of any age..- kids can be 60 & parents 80) who strongly dislike each other – don’t speak, have heated regular disagreements… and the second scenario,,,(2) kids/parents who can’t cut the umbilical cord. Mommy’s boy? Parents NEEDING kids to be their best friends. Bad boundaries make for bad parenting. Period.

Good mental health in the parents will HELP insure good mental health on the part of the kids. If the parents are paddling with just one oar in the lake. Chances are the kids might also.

Needy dependent parents will raise kids that are the same. Selfish parents will raise kids that often feel rejected. Parents who feel they “missed out on life” because of you will often reflect it in their relation to you. Were you born out of wedlock, were you the last child (when they thought they were done 10 years prior), were they very poor ? Was their marriage rocky? Is dad not married to your mom? Not good reasons for rejecting a child, but reasons.

Just because they are your parents does NOT mean they are more mature, giving & nurturing than you are.

One thing you must look at carefully. Often children(again any age) with parents they don’t get along with.. Subconsciously are always trying to please them..(the co-dependent kicking in), When they try to be cordial & tell of the things they do to please them, they are again disappointed to be kicked in the face.

Some parents will never be pleased by what you do, who you marry, the amount of money you make, the clothes you wear, the way you cook – and alas, the air you breath. There simply is NO pleasing them..

Other parents can sire Jack the Ripper & you would think he is ready for sainthood. Taint fair for sure!

Once you leave the nest, you have the option to be with who fulfills your life. It may or may not include parents or any relative,. Some chose locales to live quite far away for that reason.

Part of the midlife process is the analyzing of parents & your relation to them. This is often when repressed events of child/sexual abuse manifest. What you need to understand is WHY you feel the way you do towards your parents. Many parents have a very difficult time letting go of their children. This is especially true of moms.. the nurturing instinct is strong on the X chromosome .(that is why so many get & bond tightly with dogs/cats when they are empty nesters). A parent who can develop healthy boundaries with their children is a gift.. a treasure. Being there when wanted but in general MYOB mentality.

Some fathers are very controlling & critical of their sons.. scars that can last a lifetime are the gifts from dad. Some mom’s are very jealous of their daughters & the relationship they have with their dads(and THEIR hubbys).. that can be a life long struggle.

It is important to realize that so much we do & experience is subconscious. I truly believe there are few if any parents who want to be BAD parents. We each enter parenthood with the “teaching” from our own parents.. (HORRORS). We swear we will never be like mom/dad or do or say the things they do.. but alas, one day you look in the mirror of life &: realize that mom &/or dad falls out of your mouth & life.

For those with hostile & estranged parental relations, family get-togethers can be nightmares.. I always feel for those who are in these difficult situations.

But each situation is different & the best guideline is to be cordial, return hate with smiles, bad statements with warm ones. Disarm them. You won’t change them. You will NOT feel good about yourself or the situation by “telling them off”.

Sometimes permanent separations are necessary. Tragic but one cannot let their life & that of their spouse/kids be in turmoil over parents who are ornery. Respecting ones parents does NOT permit them to abuse you. Just be careful to make sure what is what.

This was a difficult question in many ways. One wants to love & bond with their parents. Some parents just make it doggone hard, don’t they?

YOUR TURN

[WFTR]

women have a desire to be irreplaceable maybe? other gals? ideas? thoughts? those are my observations.

I've sometimes felt that women only want a man if they can take him from another woman. If they don't have that game-playing element, they aren't interested. I realize that the statement doesn't apply to all or necessarily even to most women. It's just one of those things that I notice when I'm feeling frustrated.

To be honest, I've also known guys who seem interested in women only as a game. I was once interested in a young lady in a college Christian fellowship. One of my "friends" from the fellowship immediately decided that he had to have her. I don't think he was interested in her as much as he just wanted to make a game of it and beat me. I thoroughly despise that attitude in either sex.

Bill

[WFTR]

we like to show off our pets here.

I think you'll regret this statement. Meet:

Katrina

Ester Lily

and Elvis

Yeah I know; these are not normal Freeper pets. I bought Katrina and Elvis last October. I've always wanted a pet snake. I think I finally reached a point where I knew I wasn't getting married, so I figured that I might as well try these pets. If I've written off finding the right woman, then I don't have to worry about her not being able stand a guy with snakes for pets.

Bill

[BigSkyFreeper]

Men????

Yeah, you know, the opposite sex.

:)

[WFTR]

so I kayak & bike either alone or with the couple conservatives I know

I still haven't been in my kayak this year. I'm wanting to get a new kayak that is a better fit. I think one of the reasons that I haven't kayaked in a long time is that my primary kayak puts my legs to sleep, and I'm just not interested in the discomfort of flopping out of the boat after a couple of hours and not being able to walk very well. When I have kayaked in the past, I've gone almost always alone.

Bill

[BigSkyFreeper]

what do you think, just an inch or two off the top?

Let it grow.

[WFTR]

did you ever have the nightmare where you go to class & have NOT been there all semester.. papers are do, tests etc. You did NOT withdraw legally & now it is "payday"

I used to have this dream fairly often when I was in college. Waking up and realizing that it was just a dream was always a relief.

Someone once told me that this dream is psychologically the same as the dream of showing up in class naked. Both are related to a fear of not being prepared. I never had the dream of being naked. I guess my fear of lack of preparation was different from what some people feel.

Bill

[WFTR]

WHY IS IT that most women only seem to want the nasty, brutish, neanderthal-type guys, (even IF they say, they want the "nice guys", they usually pass them by) who will cheat on them, knock them around, and treat them like trash in general??

Women seem to be drawn to men who are self-confident. Self-confidence seems to be the quality that makes a woman's heart go "pitter-pat." Self-confidence grabs a woman's attention and hormones the way that a beautiful face and shapely body can grab a man's attention and hormones. While one can argue that the truly brutish and nasty "men" are not really self-confident, their behavior projects something that resembles self-confidence. The analogy in women would be the woman who wasn't really pretty but who dyes her hair a bright blonde and has her breasts enhanced so that her appearance grabs attention. She's not really attractive, but she's close enough that she can get some attention. The guy who's abusive gets a woman's attention this way, and some women will follow the relationship for a while.

Another factor is that our society really doesn't tell young women that getting into relationships with these kinds of men is wrong. When a guy goes after a woman who's physically attractive but has no character qualities, our society is quick to tell him that he's acting wrongly. If negative consequences come to him, society says that he was stupid for not wanting a woman with better qualities. Society will say these things to a guy even though society celebrates a woman's beauty. However, when a woman chases a guy who's clearly a loser and gets hurt, society says that criticizing her actions constitutes "blaming the victim." We create entitlements to take care of women whose pursuit of bad men puts them in difficult circumstances. Some people even try to create domestic violence laws to try to use the government to force these men to be what their women want and need. While a woman who's been burned in that situation may feel foolish and feel that she's done wrong, society doesn't tell her before these consequences hit that she needs to put her fantasies on hold for a bit and really analyze whether the relationship is right. If it isn't, she needs to walk away in spite of how certain aspects of his personality make her feel so good.

And WHY has desiring to live a life of decent moral quality, the way that God dictates in the bible, become so unpopular nowdays, among CHRISTIANS and CONSERVATIVES??

When I was in church, church people told me many stupid things and gave me a tremendous amount of foolish advice. On many of the big picture issues, I can see advantages to doing things "God's way." On the other hand, much of the advice given by the church is really just "church agenda" and isn't God's will. Unfortunately for me, I followed the church's advice for too many years and ended up too old to find the relationship that I needed by the time I figured out that the church had been telling me stupid things.

One answer to your question may be that people are starting to wise up. Their rejection of what you see as God's way may only be a rejection of things that you believe and they don't. Another possibility is that many people like me now realize that since the relationship that I really needed is no longer possible, the next best thing does go against Biblical teaching. However, I'd still rather have the next best thing than the completely unacceptable situation I was getting from the church.

Bill

[BigSkyFreeper]

I can relate somewhat to question #5. I sorta hated my parents (moreso with my mother) when I was growing up. I always wanted to do the same things my brother and my friends were doing, things like playing basketball on the school team, but mom would always have the penchant to say "No". It frustrated me to no end, so we ended up compromising by my becoming the manager of the team which allowed me to participate with my brother and my friends in some way.

Anything I wanted to do, I would ask first, and usually the responses were, "We'll talk to your father", "We'll see", or simply and flat out "No".

I never realized until after I graduated high school and was on my own that the reason my mother would say "No" or something resembling a "No" was because she loved me and wanted to protect me from harm or being hurt. You could say I became older and wiser.

I see this sort of anguish and frustration that I had as a teenager, bubble to the surface with my grandmother, who I am a caregiver for. She has Alzheimers, and she cannot perform complex tasks like turning the TV on, or starting the microwave, the washer and dryer or the dishwasher, starting the water in the tub for her bath, cooking the meals, or cleaning the dishes or driving a car. So, I take care of those jobs and let her do easier and simple jobs like wiping the table after a meal, folding her cleaned clothes, letting her do her grocery shopping (I sometimes help with that) and letting her watch on TV what she wants to watch.

I've never been married, I feel terminally single sometimes, but with my grandmother to take care of, I've found I've developed skills as a father and a husband.

There was a day when my grandmother told me during one of our meals that some woman is going to be lucky to snag you because you really know how to cook! (I actually taught myself with a lot of experimentation).

In closing, don't hate your parents, or even your grandparents. Sometimes, people have a funny way of showing they love you.

[BigSkyFreeper]

Where Did the Dots Go?

When I stare at the '+', the purple dots slowly disappear, and I see a lime colored dot going around in a circle.

[The Raven]

>>was going to be men's chest waxing, to do, or not to do

Darn! I should have stuck around.

[The Raven]

I was rummaging through the cheap DVDs yesterday and picked up "American Beauty"

Have you seen it?

[DollyCali]

yes, on American Beauty (no to chest waxing)..

I liked AB & think it is more of a guy flick maybe? Good cast. Let me know what you think. I saw it just once in theater when it came out. Several men I know saw it several times in theater & got tape or DVD

Are you staying the same locale next week as you did last year? Maybe Kit & I could meet you in that area.or we could do the Lizard again. Easy to find

[GOP_Raider]

Thanks for pinging!

Here is a question geared more toward women. Although women are attracted to men who are confident, charming, funny, etc., I'll log onto online dating sites where many profiles will ask for the aforementioned qualities, but they must be "at least" 6'1" or "must be big and muscular", or something to that effect.

Speaking from personal experience, women may like my personality but can't quite get past the fact that I'm not a big, strong guy (in case you are still skeptical, check out my profile page.) Are women who have these "must be this tall to ride the rollercoaster" requirements simply being shallow or do I just not have enough physical aesthetics to work with?

[The Raven]

>>Are you staying the same locale next week as you did last year?

Yep - in the silos. Today I'll see if I can figure out my schedule and let you know.

[The Raven]

>>Let me know what you think

I watched it yesterday. I thought it had underlying liberal stuff galore.

[DollyCali]

Wow, how did you (rather then your parents) get the responsibility of grandma? Do you live with her? She with you? (I am care giver to my mom... she was given 6 months to live - that was in 1992 - another story, another time)

Yes, it sounds like you have been given EXCELLENT partner/husband training. Patience is one of the most difficulty things for couples. Being patient with the other's differences/shortcomings.

Interesting thoughts on your relation & "after thoughts" on parents. The biggest differentiation of the parents is the fine line between protecting with love & concern & OVER protecting. My younger brother was overprotected by my mom. NOT permitted to participate in any HS athletics or club activities.(and he was good) etc. She just wanted him to stay home with her.(My mother, whom I live with, is still the same...Wants me to always just stay home with her. But she can't pull that with me like she did with a teenager)

He ended up in wrong crowd after they moved to new area. Dad at 19(future wife 16).. that lasted a few years.

He now 35+ years later is doing fine. Air force career. Got his college degree & advanced degree. Wonderful 2nd wife (1st wife left him while they were in Germany.. she was only 18, tied down with toddler & wanted to party & go to discos).

His second wife is from heaven. They have two kids, now in college, he works for State of OK in networking, they are financially comfortable & are VERY involved in a great church

I agree with your grandmother. You are tremendous husband material. You are obviously mature & have learned some valuable people skills. Young couples "learn" often on each other but the hurts along the way are sometimes to much for them to overcome at younger ages.

The most difficult thing for those who wait until late 30s or 40s (or later) for marriage they often become very self centered & it is hard to be a giver/compromiser, which is vital in a successful marriage/partnership. The cooking is a bonus. A lot of women don't like to cook or love to share the cooking.

[DollyCali]

Now I need to re-see it. Guess I don't remember much detail. I recall the fantasizing of dad mostly as the central theme.

[DollyCali]

You ask a great question! (AND YOU ARE VERY HANDSOME!)

This is a strange part of attraction. We are all attracted to different MORPH types & different PERSONALITY types. Getting both together is sometimes difficult.

Lets look at morph types:(I will use (Male)cinema personalities, as they are well known & I am a movie fanatic)

These are all "HUNKS" to women, but have different: builds, bodies, sizes" (they are often cast into rolls that depict the appearance) Type 1 - Pretty Boys.. Tom Cruise, Michael J. Fox, Leonardo De Carprio, Johnny Depp. Attractive, smaller often, facial has fine features leaning towards feminine. Still can be STRONG & powerful males.

Type 2 - Hunky Hulks. - Avg height, muscles/strength -Sylvester Stallone, Russell CRowe, The Arnold,

Type 3 - Average... build, height, strength present but not overstated - Mel gibson, Frank Sinatra,Richard Gere, John Travolta, tobey Mcquire; Robert DeNiro; Al Pacino; Matt Damon

Type 4 - Commanding - tall, sometimes lean to Avg but muscular, face angular & chiseled in appearance NOT necessarily the super handsome. Micahel Douglas, Sam Elliot, Clint eastwood, Dwayne Johnson,Gene Hackman, Denzel Washington, Harrison Ford, Nic Cage, Ben Affleck, Sean Connery, Anthony Hopkins

Type 5 - Character = shorter varied builds not a protector type - Robin Williams, Tom Hanks, Tommy Lee Jones, Jack Nicholson, Danny Devito

NOW .. there are roughly 5 different types of men here & Each group has a group of women who are attracted to them for whatever reason in their background, psyche etc. Often women have a shopping list of personality traits that should accompany the "look" That is where it gets tough, doable but tougher.

. Men do the same thing with women. They have an attraction to a certain build/set of features. It could be lotsa hair, tall/lean, full figured, large breasts,hips or thighs, short/petite, athletic look, soft/cuddly look, lots ot love look..

There is someone for everyone!

A friend of mine has 9 siblings. I met his brother Frank about 10 years ago. Frank was very distraught & was coming to live with my friend. His wife of 10 years left him for another man. Well, common story, but NOT so common as you see "wife" was a thalidomide baby. no arms, legs etc.

Not actually a babe in the modern line of thought.

Appearance is NOT everything. It is part of the packaging for sure, but the part inside is the treasure you offer to others & you look for for yourself.

And yes, if you are rejected by some, they can be partially shallow, or JUST NOT ATTRACTED to your morph type!

[DollyCali]

Beautiful pets!

We had snakes when my son was growing up.

Good freinds of ours had BIG ones.. 4 huge ones.

[DollyCali]

I just got out for the first time on Sunday afternoon. Felt good. I don't cramp up because I get in/out of kayak a lot to beach/river comb.

My kayaks are also pretty roomy for legs & hauling stuff.. Swifty & Otter