Oh yea... :)
Posted on 02/20/2006 12:43:45 PM PST by TChris
I'm beginning to look at buying a rifle. Everything I've read so far indicates that the .30-06 is a good, all-around caliber/cartridge.
I saw a Remington model 710 with a Bushnell scope for sale at a store the other day. Any comments on that model?
Other advice?
About The Author
* Note Mr. Bobbitt did not submit this article to Sniper Country, but rather to the rec.guns newsgroup on February 7, 1997. He has authored many postings to rec.guns, and is highly qualified to comment on a variety of shooting-related topics. Among his many distinctions within the shooting community, he once fired a 20-shot, 3.325" group at 800 yards! (Refer to the advertisement for Krieger Barrels in the May, 1997, issue of Precision Shooting magazine.)
My dad has one in 6mm very nice.
Some more info for your consideration. This article explores why the Savage accu trigger is so good.
Savage 30-06 With Accu-Trigger
Posted by Gowge on Jan 13 2005
Just about every U.S. built rifle is capable of extremely good accuracy in a 30-06. If there's a single thing that sets one above the others, it's the trigger the manufacturer offers in an out of the box rifle. Even budget priced or used rifles will usually perform brilliantly with a custom trigger installed.
The Savage Accu-Trigger is the real deal. Everybody I know that's bought one has been very happy with the accuracy of their particular rifle - right out of the box. I don't think Savage builds an otherwise better rifle - the barrels or actions are no better than Winchester or Remington, etc.
Here's an article you might enjoy reading: http://www.gunblast.com/Savage_Accutrigger.htm
This excerpt gives you some idea where the author is coming from:
"Riflemen these days have access to some of the most intrinsically accurate weapons ever built. Gun manufacturers have the tools and technology to produce very accurate barrels at relatively low cost, along with improved metallurgy and the ability to produce actions with precise concentricity and close tolerances. Accuracy is also enhanced by precision-molded synthetic or laminated wood stocks, resulting in a rifle with great intrinsic accuracy.
The problem with most factory produced rifles is the trigger. A seven pound or heavier trigger pull on a factory rifle is very common these days. A trigger pull this heavy will move the rifle at the moment of firing, making precise shot placement difficult at best, and very unlikely. This is no great concern to most big game hunters at close range, but is very detrimental to precision target shooters, varmint hunters, and law enforcement sharpshooters. Manufacturers have, over the last couple of decades, shipped rifles with increasingly heavier trigger pulls. It is not that a decent trigger cannot be mass-produced. The problem lies with product liability. Society’s ever increasing tendency to blame the product for the user’s ignorance or carelessness has resulted in heavier and heavier trigger pulls. It is discouraging to spend several hundred dollars on a new rifle, only to find that it almost takes two hands to pull the trigger to fire the thing! Precision shooters have grown accustomed to having their triggers reworked by a good gunsmith or replacing them with an aftermarket unit. Also, many trigger designs do not lend themselves to lightening, without serious safety concerns. A light trigger can be easily bumped off if dropped, with potentially fatal results. This has been the thorn in the side of factory rifle accuracy for several years; good barrels, stocks, actions, and horrible triggers...
...until now....."
Read the rest of the article on the link above - there's some nice pictures in the article that makes it very informative.
I have a Savage 111F in 30-06 that is extremely accurate right out of the box. I think I spent around $400 for it.
"Theory is nice to think about; facts determine the truth"
I absolutely agree with this. I also submit that the facts show that a .30 caliber bullet couldn't know and doesn't care whether the case that that held it was 2 or 21/2 inches long. There are far to many variables in the shooter,sights,rifle,primer,case,powder,bullet,atmosphere, target equation to say that one is absolutely more accurate than the other.
The fact that the military uses the 308 is explained by simple logistics. We learned the hard way 125 years ago that issuing different calibers to different units just guaranteed that everyone got the wrong ammo. If I issue my snipers a unique round and they run out (and they will) they are out of business. Every army on the planet chambers it's precision rifle the same as it's medium machineguns so the troop that runs out of his "accurate" ammo he just strips some FMJ from it's links and goes on.
The police sniper is a recent phenomenon. When the first civilian sniper teams were formed they sought the knowledge of other snipers. Where did they find them? The military. What does the military use? 308. Therefor, the civilians use 308. It's that simple.
Either one does almost the exact same thing. Which one you choose depends solely on which one makes you feel good.
powder burns quicker and more evenly in the shorter fatter case, also the shape of the case is better. Why does 308 have all the records when 30/06 is also allowed?
Echo, I agree with you the .308 is inherently more accurate but for the purposes of this thread it really doesn't matter. We're talking about hunting rifles and average marksmen. The 30-06 makes a fine rifle out to the ranges most hunters are willing (or able) to shoot. I would personally have to come down in favor of the 30-06 as a hunting rifle for one very humble reason. There is an abundance of choice of ammo and it's universally available.
Besides, I'm hearing rumors the military is going to move to the .338 for it's sniper rifle. Have you heard anything along those lines?
Nothing wrong with the 30/06 but since he was asking what is more accurate thr Savage or the Remington, just thought it was fair game to get into the round as well.
Grr 338 Lapua.
Well, since we're talking Remington vs Savage. Since the barrels are pick 'em between the two and assuming the Remington is fully floated like the Savage then I would have to go with the Savage because of the accu trigger. It's awesome. I've got mine dialed down to about 3-4 lbs. of pull. Sweet.
The best .30-06 is a .270.
* snicker *
It seems the data tell a different story. The .308 does appear to be the more accurate combination, for what ever reason. ...AFAICT.
"It seems the data tell a different story"
What data, specifically, are you referring to? Mr Bobbitt's overly simple column on Sniper Country? Is that all you've got?
Well, that, and what the others have mentioned. If the .30-06 was equivalent, you'd certainly expect to see more of it in competition. I find it perfectly reasonable that the size of the case can have an effect on powder burn rate consistency.
Other than labeling it "overly simple", do you have any data to refute Mr. Bobbitt's findings? I'm just going with the best information I have available, that's all. If there are better studies, I'd certainly like to see them.
"ther than labeling it "overly simple"do you have any data to refute Mr. Bobbitt's findings?
You bet. I've already told you what is wrong with his assertion, He's talking about rounds while comparing rifles. Before 1965 American Highpower was all about military training. When you went to the National Matches you paid your entry fee and were issued ammo on the line. If you didn't have a rifle you were issued one, until about 1960 it was a '03, after that an M1. Issue ammo was whatever ammo they had. Most of the time it was M72 Match but occasionally M2 ball. Caliber? 30-06. That was it. As Vietnam heated up and more military resources went there the military stopped running the matches. Where before army privates pulled targets and scored for the shooters, now they had to do this themselves. They old guys shooting their NM Springfields weren't in any shape to pull targets all day. Shooters had to provide their own equipment and as there was no way to standardize the rules were relaxed to allow any safe rifle/ ammo combination. The rules that governed positions were also relaxed and the hunt for pure accuracy began.
About this time Winchester stopped making the M70 Match rifle so the only repeating full bore factory target rifle available to the shooter was the Remington 40X. Short action. See where this is going? Palma shooters have been required to use the 7.62 Nato round since the '60s. Since they are also restricted to 155gr bullets they would love to be able to the '06. With 30 inches of barrel to work with velocities of 3300 FPS could be obtained.
You mention the size of the case on burning rate. It is perfectly reasonable to say that the .308 is more efficient than the '06 because loading density is greater if, and here's where it falls apart, if the powder used is the same in both cases. 42 grains of H335 will just about fill a .308 case and give close to 100% loading density. The same charge in the longer '06 case leaves a lot of air under the bullet. Why though, if I have this much larger combustion chamber, would I use H335? I can pour in 50 grains of RL19, filling the case to the bottom of the neck and have 100% density AND gain 300 FPS with the same bullet.
There are lots of reasons why the .308 took over from the '06 as America's favorite Highpower round. Most of these are the same reasons why the 5.56 has taken over as the new favorite round. If you shoot Highpower today (but I doubt that you do) you'll see more '06 shooters that .308 shooters. This is also easily explained. The inexpensive rifles available are the AR and the M1, through the CMP. The only factory rifles around in .308 are the Rem 40X, at $2000 and a M1A for about the same money. The .308 is on it's death bed in Highpower, and the AR killed it.
I think I would lean towards the Savage as well, I have never fired one but hear good things about them. And the price is right.
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