Posted on 12/10/2005 1:02:11 PM PST by Melinda in TN
My husband is giving me a revolver for Christmas. I have my choice between a 357 Magnum Taurus model 605 or a 38-Special undercover police special. He says I can't hold the 357 magnum when I pull the trigger. I currently carry a .380 semi-auto and I know they are both much more powerful than that. He said he will carry the one I don't choose. Both guns have a 2" barrel. Is the 357 magnum really that bad? Opinions? Here are pictures. The 357 is a much better looking gun but I want something I can handle.
This is the 357 Magnum
This is the 38-Special
I don't start a thread very often so if I did this wrong, please forgive me!
Doing that will allow you to conceal your place of residence and not technically be lying to the Court. What the judge don't know ain't gonna hurt him (or her).
It will however help to prevent you from getting hurt. And that's all that really matters now isn't it.
L
Model 642 with Crimson Trace Laser Grips - The classic hammerless, five-shot
Airweight revolver chambered in .38 S&W Special +P now comes with
factory installed Crimson Trace(R) Laser Grips. Combining the no snag,
hammerless design of the 642 with the rapid target acquisition capability
of Crimson Trace Laser Grips(R) offers low-light precision aiming
capabilities in an easy carry personal protection package. $695.00 MSRP.
That's what I'm buying for my wife.
In the link I that provided for you both, I hope, you will find some very interesting and useful reading. Dr. Fackler actually recommends TARGET WADCUTTERS for personal defense with a snub-nosed revolver, because of the already expanded-size bullet nose, and the LOW velocity compared to WEIGHT, which hunters will tell you that, counterintuitively, is the formula for DEEP penetration. It is NOT velocity, as in a rifle. We are far below that capacity with most handguns, so must find other means. Higher velocity can and often DOES expand a hollow point projectile so rapidly upon contact, that the bullet acts as a reverse parachute, slowing down and shedding weight, then failing to sufficiently penetrate, especially when called upon to get through outstretched hands, arms, heavy clothing, whatever. What we desire to be carrying is that which stands a reasonable expectation of sufficient penetration in the least desirable circumstances, in order to effect a cessation of lethal attack, a "stop."
Many police departments, and several "elite" combat teams, and even yours truly, on their advice and example, carry 147 grain sub-sonic ammunition in their 9mms. This is called "OSM," Olin Super Match, and was originally developed by Winchester to give "stopping performance" to submachineguns using silencers. Theu simply applied the hunters' formula of "heavy for caliber" bullets at moderate speed. If one examines the test results of OSM compared to all other highly touted +P and +P+ cartridges, honestly, the results are quite cleas...OSM penetrates far deeper, and with near perfest, textbook mushrooming, quite contrary to popular opinion, yet seemingly, only a few otherwise knowledgeable users condescend to purchasing inexpensive "white box," Winchester USA ammunition with which to load their personal defense automatics. I suppose even fewer purchase the even better performing but more expensive Superme variety, yet it is all widely available, and even frequently discounted.
Y'buys yer ticket, and y'takes yer chances.
I know what my choice is, and why, and it has proven to be sound in the field, too. My +P is in storage now, should I desire to use it later....after I run out of my first choice!
Here is some supporting documentation for my assertion that it is bullet weight, not velocity, which drives a projectile to penetrate deeply, hopefully deeply enough, and with a broad enough frontal area, to cause a quick "stop" :
"The stress experienced by a bullet upon impact is the product of the toughness of the target and the speed of impact. Therefore, when engaging an extremely tough target at close-quarters, such as a heavy coastal grizzly or buffalo, reliable power is best achieved by lowering velocity and increasing bullet weight.
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.asp
There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.
Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common-sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.
Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.
What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop. If the builders of the various 458 Magnum calibers would simply advocate driving the heaviest bullets their calibers can push to about 1500-1600 fps, the super-powerful magnums would produce penetration depth unobtainable with 500-grain solid bullets at any speed. A 650-700 grain 458 solid at 1550-fps from the magnum 458s would produce penetration that would clearly redefine the 458 Magnums. However such an increase in bullet weight would require faster twist barrels and would certainly bring howls of protest from those who purchased 458 Magnums previously, since those guns would require rebarreling in order to accommodate the heavier bullets. As a consequence of this, I don't think any of us should hold our breaths waiting for that kind of change to occur.
Fortunately for all of us who love the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70s "inability" to achieve the kinds of speeds with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great."
So, my opinion is that although the .38 Spec. may be adequate in the heavier weights, the .357 is the better choice if size is not too much of an issue, because the added benefit of ammunition resupply availability under crisis conditions is an important factor for long-term survival. Also, heavier bullet loads are more easily obtainable in .357 than .38, as the longer chambers allow longer bullets, even if they must be loaded into .38 cases, as several did for use in Viet Nam (see writer Paco Kelly), and by domestic police. It is akin to having a car which only runs on "regular," as opposed to one which will run on "premium" too.
I've never had any trouble with the Overland Stage double-barrel but it put a nasty bruise on both my husband and my daughter's boyfriend. They both braced it against their shoulders like you normally do. I hold the butt under my arm, against my side, and hold the barrels down with my left hand, from the top side. I know that would make some instructors cringe but it works for me. I don't get bruised and I can keep it under control. My husband has a Remington 1100 with gas recoil and it's a Cadillac. My 12-GA is a cannon. BTW, the term "knock you off your feet" was just a figure of speech. I have seen my Overland Stage make grown men take a couple of steps backwards though. :-)
Very glad you're up to speed on the "using" of this stuff. I had to assume otherwise, just to be sure, but I sure don't want to sound like an authority giving a lecture.
Many people around the world read these threads, and I desired to cover the waterfront for them. The typos were thrown in just for fun.
Trust me.
If you're wanting to start out in 38 Special with something with the lowest recoil, 148 grain full wadcutter target ammuntion is what to look for. Another low recoil choice(and cheaper than you're likely to find 148 grain wadcutter) would be Winchester 130 grain FMJ(Winchester white box)--this is range/plinking ammo not a good choice for self defense. For self defense, I'd suggest Speer 135 grain +P Gold Dot Hollowpoint which was designed specifically for 38 Special snubbies . Another good choice for defense would be 158 grain +P lead semi-wadcutter hollowpoint(also known as FBI load and available from several manufacturers.)
If you want to give 357 Magnum a try, the Winchester 110 grain JHP(Winchester white box) is comparatively mild for 357 Magnum. Remington Golden Saber 125 grain is another for fairly mild 357 Magnum ammuntion.
That's fine PoorMuttly. I understood. Firearm use is definitely a subject that should be fully explained. You never know who might be reading the thread.
FreedomForce, I copied down your recommendations to take to the gun shop with me. I'll start with the mild .38 Specials and if I master them I'll move up to some mild .357 ammo.
Melinda,
Lots of good advice here. Truely sorry about what happened to you sometime back. As the brother of a murdered sister I am a very strong advocate of well armed respectable women. I know I'm a little late on this tread but here are my thoughts.
I'd take the option of the .357 mag. As others have pointed out, the option of .38 or .357 in the same revolver gives you the opportunity to upgrade to a more effective round. The big "to do" is practice, practice, and more practice. Did I mention practice?
Like my good friend Squantos, I carry a S&W 696 .44Special in a SMZ shoulder holster loaded with CCI 200 gr GDHP. I also prefer a .45 as well.
I hope and pray this individual does not get out of prison. Whoever killed my sister is still out there and I know the devastation it caused in my own family. Your defense is a God given right, all of us will definitely have you in our thoughts. Your should be looking forward to Christmas, not worrying about this low life coming after you.
Do what you have to do to protect yourself. Let us know what happens after the parole hearing, hopefully it will be good news.
Me thinks ya have trussell confused with Melinda TP !.....:o)
Squantos - Thank you for the ping to Tex's reply.
TEXASPROUD - I hope to be able to post good news...but I am worried because he knows how to work the system. He is a five time felon, and is only 52 years old now. He has been in for 15 years this time, and has gained the position of trustee...he is in the Robertson Unit in Abilene Texas.
He will hurt others if he is released...I pray they have sense enough to keep him in for the life sentence he was given!
Model: 642
Caliber: .38 +P
Capacity: 5 Rounds
Barrel Length: 1 7/8"
Front Sight: Integral Front
Rear Sight: Fixed
Grip: Crimson Trace Laser Grips
Frame: Small - Centennial Style
Finish: Matte
Overall Length: 6 3/8"
Material: Alloy/Stainless Steel
Weight Empty: 15 oz.
This is a better picture
I knew a gunsmith who, after an incident over the cash register of his store which involved a sheath knife to his throat, carried a Larry Kelly worked (Mag-na-Port Arms) stainless Bulldog with a 7/8" barrel and BOBBED HAMMER, with a smooth and reliable action job, and Glaser blues. (I personally STRONGLY advise against Glaser or any other prefragmented ammunition. There have been MANY dramatic failures with it of which I am personally aware, and as a 17 year, 17 kill veteran of an NYPD Stakeout team once counseled me: "What if he raises his hand, you blow it off, and he kills you anyway?!")
The spur-less hammer doesn't snag during a hurried draw, is reliable if the spring is kept strong enough to compensate for the lighter hammer, and can be thumb-cocked if desired, after slightly raising it with trigger pressure. The downside of hammerless designs is rather serious though.
Before holstering your revolver in anticipation of really having to use it in dire circumstances, it is advisable to perform the standard cycling test, which writer, instructor, and p.o. Massad Ayoob always emphasizes: load your revolver, point it in a safe direction (couch, bed, refrigerator....) and carefully, slowly, thumb the hammer back until the cylinder will spin. Rotate the cylinder to make sure that it rotates freely (!), and no foreign matter has raised a case rim enough to cause a jam. This is the old Hollywood cowboy and detective move, the real one, not with the cylinder swung out though, and it should be done more carefully, also for the sake of maintaining the integrity of the cylinder pin, the rod upon which the cylinder spins.
With hammerless revolvers, one must squeeze the trigger just enough to unlock the cylinder, and gently spin it around, then gently let the trigger back down...yuck.
It does afford a quiet and reflective time in which to ponder the reason for, and your preparedness to use it.
One other thing, to properly DRAW a spur hammered handgun, the thumb should be covering the hammer, as one would in preparation to cock a Single Action Army or other s.a. revolver. This protects the spur from catching on clothing, which could be rather inconvenient. Revolvers can also be fired from within a jacket pocket or handbag, which is a very handy thing to do, under unpleasant circumstances. I was acquainted with an elderly collection agent many years ago, who worked in a very dangerous high rise apartment complex, mostly. He advised me to do what he did, which is buy several thrift shop sport jackets, and learn what to expect by wearing them and shooting through the outside pockets. He carried a Sig automatic in one pocket and a .357 in the other. He said that "If it isn't already in your hand when you need it, it's too late."
Also, trussell, get some Militec-1 lubricant over the internet, and use it. It is actually a DRY metal treatment, carried by oil to begin with. Under heat, the heat of firing, it bonds to the metal, making it 17 times harder, therefore slicker, less friction. It really works, and is in widespread use throughout our Armed Forces overseas. One does not desire a dry, unlubricated firearm, but one DEFINITELY does not want one's primers compromised by oil in any way, especially when anticipating trouble. Clear nailpolish has been sucessfully used to protect primers and case necks, and I know this is almost the nth degree of paranoia, perhaps, but it always pays to be as prepared as possible. Mechinery treated with Militec-1 can be completely dry, thereby also not attracting dust and lint, and yet be fully lubricated and ready to go. If you may be carrying in a pocket, handbag, fanny pack, or purse, and on general principles anyway, serious people now use Militec-1, and are pleased with it. Innocent looking lint can disable a handgun. Why take chances, and why have your defensive instrument in an inconvenient place from which to draw it, if there are better, and more ready options?
May you never need to test any of these recommendations, and just have developed an interesting hobby by doing all this. You will also impress gun-owning men and women the world over, which could also be fun, too.
Thank you again PM...I will order some. If it will protect my gun and make it easier for my gun to protect me, I'm willing to try it.
I carry in my purse, but it is a conceal carry purse with a dedicated pocket for the weapon. Not much chance for lint or other debris to get in.
Being prepared is a mature enterprise in itself, and yields many rewards in character and awareness of the real circumstances of life in the world, as it is. There are good and wholesome and useful things to be gained in the persuit of excellence of almost any kind, and self preservation, and the defense of the innocent is a noble endeavor.
It is best to have several lines of defense. An outer fence, a dog, a light, locked door, even a locked screen door "slows them down."
You may want to visit www.jlusa.com for some of their FOX brand pepper spray, and other interesting and useful items. Why not? Even without your possible situation, why not indeed. You will read that the FOX brand is the strongest pepper spray made, made from habanero peppers, and @5,300,000SHU in strength...it stops attack dogs and polar bears. The Marines and others use it. It is utterly non-lethal, but does provide a sudden little trip to hell until it wears off. I have done business with JL and have found them very accomodating and conscientious. They really care.
Just some corrections on little fine points. Militec-1 does not make metal harder, but rather stiffer. Hard metal can become brittle, stiff metal is just slick.
Also, the nailpolish is used on case mouths, not necks. Bottleneck rounds have necks, revolver rounds only mouths. Since I regailed us all with these endless technicalities, it bothered me to leave some glaring errors, of which there are probably more. Say good night Muttly.
Well...O.K. Good night.
http://www.jlusa.com/
One more ammunition possibility for you:
Speer 357 Magnum 135 grain Gold Dot Hollowpoint. This is Speer's 357 Magnum round designed for snubbies. The ballistics for it(990 ft/sec muzzle velocity and 294 ft-lbs muzzle energy) look like it must just barely be in Magnum pressure territory. Haven't ever shot it, but it must be pretty mild for 357 Magnum. For comparison, the Winchester 110 grain that I mentioned in the other reply is something like 1295 ft/sec & 410 ft-lbs and the Remington Golden Saber 125 grain is around 1225 ft/sec & 415 ft-lbs. Not sure if those are the exact numbers but they're pretty close.
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