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Palmeiro's surge began after Canseco became teammate [Rick Sutcliffe on former Cub Palmeiro]
St. Louis Post-Dispatch ^ | 08/04/2005 | Rick Hummel

Posted on 08/03/2005 8:34:12 AM PDT by newgeezer

Rick Sutcliffe, the star pitcher for the Chicago Cubs in the late 1980s, recalls the day that teammate Rafael Palmeiro, a first baseman-outfielder, was on his way out of Chicago.

"It was (general manager) Jim Frey and (manager) Don Zimmer who both said, 'This guy will never hit for power,' " Sutcliffe recalled. "I remember a situation where there was a man at first and nobody out. Zimmer's big deal was to pull the ball as a lefthanded hitter. A base hit to right and you go first to third. A base hit to left, you only go first to second. So, 'Raffy' comes up and singles to left as good as you've ever seen, and it's first and second. Zimmer was so mad, I thought he was going to pinch-run for him."

That day in 1988, it was decided that the Cubs would keep lefthanded-hitting Mark Grace, whom they thought would hit for more power than Palmeiro, and trade Palmeiro, which they did in the offseason of 1988. That year, Palmeiro had hit only eight homers in 580 at-bats for the Cubs. Grace had seven in 486 at-bats.

Palmeiro, who even had named his dog "Wrigley" in honor of Wrigley Field, desperately wanted to remain a Cub and called Sutcliffe, whom he presumed had considerable influence in the organization.

"He said, 'Tell (Cubs management) I promise I will hit for power. Tell them to please don't trade me,'" said Sutcliffe, now an ESPN analyst who was in town this week.

"I called Frey and said, 'I believe this guy. He says he's going to hit for power. Let's hang on to him.' But obviously, they traded him."


(Excerpt) Read more at stltoday.com ...


TOPICS: Sports
KEYWORDS: baseball; palmeiro; ricksutcliffe; steroids
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To: nickcarraway
Babe Ruth wasn't known for hitting for power at the start of his career?

That's because Babe Ruth started out as pitcher. Check his stats and you will find that he became a legitimate slugger at about the same time he became a regular position player. And while you are at it, check out the career stats for Aaron, Mays, Robinson, and Jackson. All of these guys were legitimate sluggers from their first full year as a starting player in the majors.

21 posted on 08/03/2005 9:02:57 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: Alberta's Child
A steroidless Giambi just hit 14 HRs in July. ....the most by a Yankee since Mickey Mantle (in I believe '61).

His career is not comparable with Palmeiro's. Giambi's first year was '95, and it's understandable that he had a couple of (relatively) mediocre seasons in his early 20s before he got going. Raffy, otoh, spent around a decade in the majors before putting up the big #s.

22 posted on 08/03/2005 9:04:48 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Kokojmudd

Palmeiro hit 41 doubles in 1988, so he had power from the start, just not big home run power. Steroids turn warning track outs into 5th row home runs. Now I'm wondering about Edgar Martinez, who went from a doubles gap-hitter into a 25+ home run guy in the mid 1990's. This steroid thing is casting a shadow on everyone.


23 posted on 08/03/2005 9:06:34 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: newgeezer
Palmeiro's surge began after Canseco became teammate

Canseco said he shot him up Palmeiro until he learned how to do it himself..

24 posted on 08/03/2005 9:06:37 AM PDT by b4its2late (If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.)
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To: ken5050

baseball ping


25 posted on 08/03/2005 9:07:26 AM PDT by nutmeg ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good." - Hillary Clinton 6/28/04)
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To: Steve_Seattle
Now I'm wondering about Edgar Martinez

Say it ain't so!

26 posted on 08/03/2005 9:08:08 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Mr. Mojo

I just checked edgar's stats, and he did increase his homers in the mid 90's, but not in a real dramatic way. he went from 14-24 a year to 25-35. And he always had a ton of doubles, so the home run increase might just be from honing his skills and maybe pumping a little iron.


27 posted on 08/03/2005 9:10:39 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Steve_Seattle

retired in 2002. Had 50 HR's in 1996 out of nowhere.


28 posted on 08/03/2005 9:12:37 AM PDT by Gaetano
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To: nickcarraway

Babe Ruth was a starting pitcher in his first few years, meaning he was in the line-up only every 4th or 5th day, so he didn't get a lot of at-bats.

I think people totally miss the point of banning steroids. It is the detrimental effects they have on your health, not the fact that it makes you stronger "artificially". I wouldn't have a problem with anyone using steroids AT ALL if there was no downside to using them, but the testimony of Steve Courson, ex-Steeler, before Congress about steroids and the devastating effect they had on his health -- and then, of course, Lyle Alzado -- convinced me that steroid use is truly bad news. Then there's the psychiatric effects of 'roid raging and all that that causes users to go nuts and get themselves in trouble.

But if you could find some super-food that had the same positive effects on strength and speed and overall health as steroids with ZERO negative effects, not only would I favor athletes eating it, wouldn't any member of the general population have to be a fool not to eat it?

Anyone who chooses one diet over another to gain strength, lose weight, etc., is chemically altering their body just like a steroid user. The difference is the effect isn't as immediate or as great and the long term health effects are all positive. But do we put an asterisk next to the name of players who eat a lot of fruits and vegetables? No, because they're not breaking any rules.

Steroids are wrong to use because not only are they so destructive to your health, they make you a danger to others around you, which is why they are banned. But if someone ever invents a truly safe steroid (unlikely) with no negative side effects or some other safe drug or superfood that has such an effect on strength and performance, I say everybody -- athlete or not -- go for it.


29 posted on 08/03/2005 9:13:16 AM PDT by Zhangliqun (Hating Bush does not count as a strategy for defeating Islamic terrorism.)
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To: Labyrinthos

I wonder if all the hot dogs Babe Ruth ate contained steroids?


30 posted on 08/03/2005 9:15:04 AM PDT by Kokojmudd (Outsource Federal Judiciary and US Senate to India, NOW!)
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To: Mr. Mojo
"Still, nothing beats Barry Bonds peaking in his late 30s -- unprecedented in the history of baseball. And not just peaking, but playing a brand of baseball that a 25 - 30 year old Bonds couldn't even dream of."

True; unprecedented in sports history, I think, for an athlete to peak at the age of 35-39. In auto racing, Juan Manuel Fangio won his world championships in his late 30s, early 40s, but that is hardly comparable.
31 posted on 08/03/2005 9:15:50 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Steve_Seattle
and he did increase his homers in the mid 90's, but not in a real dramatic way. he went from 14-24 a year to 25-35.

Many people believe that MLB tried to inject (as it were) some more power into the game (and thus win back their fans) right after the '94 strike by juicing up the baseball itself. ....and considering that nearly everyone's power numbers received a big post-strike boost I'm inclined to believe that theory.

And when you add steroids into the equation records were bound to fall. (McGwire, Bonds. .....70 HRs, 73 HRs).

32 posted on 08/03/2005 9:17:00 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: Kokojmudd

Maybe he was drinking Burbonoids.


33 posted on 08/03/2005 9:17:05 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: Mr. Mojo
A steroidless Giambi just hit 14 HRs in July. ....the most by a Yankee since Mickey Mantle (in I believe '61).

The rumor around town is that Giambi is taking human growth hormones that are only detectable by a blood test, which is not allowed under the collective bargaining agreement (the CBA only allows pee tests). Note, however, that I first heard the rumor from a wacko Red Sox fan, so take it for what its worth.

34 posted on 08/03/2005 9:21:04 AM PDT by Labyrinthos
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To: Mr. Mojo
A steroidless Giambi just hit 14 HRs in July. ....the most by a Yankee since Mickey Mantle (in I believe '61).

Why are you so certain that this is a "steroidless" Giambi? Has he done anything to earn that consideration?

Raffy, otoh, spent around a decade in the majors before putting up the big #s.

The big difference with Palmeiro is that he was a good contact hitter for most of his earlier career -- he just didn't put up big power numbers. Before 1993 he was a career .295 hitter with career highs of 26 home runs and 89 RBIs. He hit 37 home runs that year and drove in 100+ runs, and he's been a power machine ever since then. His batting average has declined considerably in the last few years, though.

35 posted on 08/03/2005 9:21:30 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (I ain't got a dime, but what I got is mine. I ain't rich, but Lord I'm free.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
"And when you add steroids into the equation records were bound to fall. (McGwire, Bonds. .....70 HRs, 73 HRs)."

That should have been the clue right there. the 60 hone run mark had only been breached two or three times in history, and all of a sudden two guys hit 70 in a year despite highly specialized pitching: lefty/lefty, 97 mph relievers, etc.
36 posted on 08/03/2005 9:22:13 AM PDT by Steve_Seattle
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To: Alberta's Child

If Tony Gwynn had been on steroids I suppose he would have batted .500 with 60 hrs and maybe even grown an inch or two.


37 posted on 08/03/2005 9:27:48 AM PDT by Kokojmudd (Outsource Federal Judiciary and US Senate to India, NOW!)
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To: Alberta's Child
Why are you so certain that this is a "steroidless" Giambi? Has he done anything to earn that consideration?

Giambi lost a lot of muscle mass in a very short period time (last year) shortly after the steroid rumors pointed in his direction. ...and his numbers suffered accordingly. His case was so obvious that he was booed heartily in every ballpark he visited.

But the 2nd half of this year his numbers have started to pick up. ....and he's still not close to the size he was earlier in his career.

Yeah, Raffy was always an excellent hitter. Too bad he had to resort to the juice.

38 posted on 08/03/2005 9:29:29 AM PDT by Mr. Mojo
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To: newgeezer
The first 35 years of my life I was a rabid baseball fan. Baseball history, stats, ticket stubs galore, books stacked to the ceiling and the radio always tuned to a game.

Now, I just can't get into it. I still read the books and listen to old broadcasts from the 40's, 50's and 60's but I can't watch todays game.

Time was, you could relate to a ballplayer, they looked like everyday people. Now they have necks the size of my thigh and thighs the size of tree trunks. II just can't enjoy the game as played by a bunch of tweaked out gorillas.

39 posted on 08/03/2005 9:30:38 AM PDT by freedomson (Tagline comment removed by moderator)
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To: Kokojmudd

Bill Melton, a 3rd baseman and slugger for the ChiSox in the 60s, 70s, made an interesting observation on the radio over the week-end:

He stated that their were numerous hitters in his day who routinely hit the ball to the warning track for outs. With a little help from a steroid, these same players were now home-run machines gaining fame and fortune. The temptation was enormous.


40 posted on 08/03/2005 9:31:28 AM PDT by wrathof59 ("to the Everlasting Glory of the Infantry".........Robert A Heinlein)
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