Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince--SPOILER ALERT!!!

me | July 17, 2005 | grellis

[grellis]

THIS THREAD IS INTENDED FOR READERS THAT HAVE COMPLETED THE BOOK! If you have not yet read the book, consider yourself warned: There will be spoilers on this thread.

For my fellow FReepers who have no intention of reading the book but would like to discuss the more controversial issues related to the work, I am asking you as politely as I can: DO NOT HIJACK THIS THREAD. We are all members of this forum and as such, it is not up to me to disallow anyone from participating in the discussion. That is why I am asking you--please do not hijack this thread. If you would like to discuss the more controversial aspects of the book, maybe you could start your own thread and ping us over there. If we are interested, we'll come.

[Tanniker Smith]

Initial impression: I feel like I was stabbed in the back, and not by the characters, but by J.K.R. herself. I say that as a reader and as a sometimes writer.

Let me also add that I did enjoy this book and that I probably enjoyed it more than 4 (which seemed stretched out and then unfinished) and 5 (which didn't seem to go anywhere and had a needless death added in).

I though Neville might have had a bigger part in this. And I wasn't even on the right track before picking up the book as to whom the Half-Blood Prince was (I was thinking Hagrid) but my first guess was Snape when it was a Potions book that was still in the school. Now a few complaints, starting with:

The wisest man in all of wizarddom was simply taken in by Snape? If Snape's that good, the Dark Lord ought to watch out because even he couldn't do that. And Dumbledore had no idea right until the very end? And then a feeble cry for help before his life was ended?

What left me unsatisified:

• Dumbledore doesn't usually reveal his reasoning until the end and then we find that indeed he was so wise. If he was going to be wrong this time, we should have known something somewhere along the way. Which leads to:
• What was the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape? There must've been a reason that he felt that he would make the best double agent. When Snape proved himself, we were supposed to see Dumbledore's wisdom as he once again revealed that he outthought everyone. Now we're left without that reason.
• And why finally make him DADA teacher?
• Rowling likes setting things up in ways that things are not. Suspicions have always fallen on Snape ... suspicions which had then been red herrings, would have made for great prose, but instead, it's just a bunch of sloppiness.
• The Unbreakable Vow: Okay, so who was wondering how Snape was going to get out of that one? Surprise! He didn't have to because he meant every word of it! And, really, if the Unbreakable Vow was so binding with no loopholes and Snape would have to be on the Dark Side to follow through with it (or die!) then why didn't anyone think that this was serious when Harry mentioned it? (I'm not going back to find out if he told Dumbledore this part or not.)

Some thoughts for the next book:

• I hope Harry meets R.A.B. early, say about the sixth or seventh chapter and he says something like, "Oh, yeah, I've gotten to four of the horcruxes already. You did the diary? cool, only one more and then after I drop dead getting that one, you can face Voldemort alone as it most be."
• Instead of Snape being vindicated and coming off as someone who is just nasty to be around but one of the Good Guys, he now gets to be mercilessly tortured. Snape wasn't being controlled. He's a murderer. Aint no way around that.
• Will the Muggle world be in danger? I got one chapter about the Prime Minister and that was the end of it. He wasn't around again. Nor was Fudge.

That's all for now. I still have 250+ posts to read through.

TS

[Not A Snowbird]

Read through the rest of this thread, my friend. There's almost nobody on here who believes that Snape betrayed Dumbledore. The clues are everywhere.

[Pippin]

I had another theory to think about.

And a comment

First the comment, I've read the comments on this thread and one thing had struck me, some folks were suggesting that Snape could have killed or kidnapped Harry while they were in the tower. But, if I read that part clearly, wasn't Harry still under the invisibitity cloak?

So Niether Snape nor Draco or any of the other Death Eaters there could've known Harry was there.

Now my thoery, I got this idea from both some of the comments here and reading about how Lily had sacrificed herself for her son and put that aura or protection on him.

Couldn't have DD done the same thing when he was murdered?

I mean placed that same form of protection on Harry to carry him through when Lily's protection ceases on Harry's 17th birthday?

[Not A Snowbird]

I think folks are talking about once they left the tower and were heading for the edge of the grounds. Harry was vulnerable at that point.

As to Dumbledore protecting Harry through his death... what do we know about Dumbledore's past, really? Any chance he's a blood relative of Harry's, however distant?

Ha! There's something new to think about. :-)

[Pippin]

My mistake, I thought they were talking about in the tower.

Snape's a puzzle to me.

I'm getting the "is he or isn't he" vibes about him.

I have thought about DD being a blood relative to Harry, like a distant relation.

Let's see if this theory has wings.

[grellis]

I'm a firm believer that the lack of a kidnap attempt in some ways proves that Snape had no intention of bringing any harm to Harry. The opportunity for Snape to kidnap HP came when they were outside of the castle, running across the grounds, nearing the boundary of Hogwarts and Hogsmeade. IIRC, HP was the only "good guy" in the chase at the time. He kept trying to hex Snape and Snape kept deflecting him, while throwing nonverbal curses of his own (I think that's an important point--we have no way of knowing how serious Snape's hexes were). At one point (I read quickly--I HAVE to read the chase scene again) Snape had HP on the ground and was screaming "I am not a coward" at him. THAT was the kidnap opportunity. In PoA, Snape himself, after being immobilized, was enchanted to float along with the others as they left the tunnel leading from the shack. He could easily have done the same with HP, and he would have been able to hand VM the greatest prize of all. So why did he scream about not being a coward? I think it was a combination of rage and frustration. He had just killed DD--because, I believe, he HAD to (I think that has to do with the argument that Hagrid overheard Snape and DD having). He did something that I think was horrific to him. Pure supposition! I don't know why I want to believe so much that Snape is being misunderstood, that he's not such a bad guy after all. I hate to say it, but I think it's because I really, really like Alan Rickman. He's a fabulous actor, one of my favorites.

Damn movies! They ALWAYS screw up the books!

[kellynch]

I hate to say it, but I think it's because I really, really like Alan Rickman. He's a fabulous actor, one of my favorites.

Despite the fact that he is a flaming liberal, I love him and will see almost anything he's in. He's an outstanding actor. Dear Lord, that voice! *sigh*

[Huntress]

I bet you're right, given previous casting decisions. Judi Dench would probably do an excellent job as Umbridge. I think Helen Mirren is a wonderful actress, but I can't see her in that role. Umbridge needs to be played by someone who is short and pudgy. Maybe Imelda Staunton or Vanessa Redgrave?

[Huntress]

I agree with you both. Alan Rickman is perfect for the part of Snape, and always makes an excellent bad guy.

[Not A Snowbird]

I don't know why I want to believe so much that Snape is being misunderstood, that he's not such a bad guy after all. I hate to say it, but I think it's because I really, really like Alan Rickman.

***Snort!!!***

You read my mind, grellis! Shame on us!

[Huntress]

Here is a theory that just occurred to me:

I think one of the Malfoys (probably Narcissa) will betray Voldemort in Book 7, and it will lead to his eventual defeat. Throughout the series, Dumbledore has continually made the point that love is powerful, and that Voldemort's weakness is that he fails to understand this. In ordering Draco to kill Dumbledore under the threat of killing his family, Voldemort has set up the instrument of his betrayal. If, in Book 7, it comes down to a choice between her loyalty to Voldemort or the life of her son, Narcissa will choose Draco. Similarly, if Draco is set up to choose between his family and Voldemort, he'll choose his folks. He showed this weakness (a weakness from Voldemort's perspective, anyway) when he couldn't kill Dumbledore in the tower. Snape got him out of that jam, but I'm sure the issue will come up again in Book 7.

Thoughts?

[kellynch]

Umbridge needs to be played by someone who is short and pudgy. Maybe Imelda Staunton or Vanessa Redgrave?

IMHO, Dame Judi is too old for Umbridge. I think Imelda Staunton (whom I adore) would be GREAT for the part.

In all honesty, I think the production team has made some wonderful casting decisions. I know some people who didn't like Kenneth Branagh as Lockhart (which reminds me -- I wonder if he'll come back for the bit part in the St. Mungo's scene in Order of the Phoenix), but I thought he was great as a smarmy liar. I know some people who didn't like the idea of Gary Oldman as Sirius, and I confess to having been one of them. But once I saw him, I realized they did the right thing. So, now I just let them do what they've done all along -- surprise and then impress me.

I've just finished looking at IMDb's cast list for Goblet of Fire, and it looks interesting with Miranda Richardson as Rita Skeeter and Ralph Fiennes as Volders. I'd read someplace that Kate Winslet was considered for Fleur, but I am so glad that person came to his/her senses. I've liked her in a lot of roles, but she's completely wrong for this one IMO.

And, the best news from IMDb is that GoF is scheduled for release here in the States on November 18. I know I'll be there!!!

[kellynch]

I don't know. Her name alone (Narcissa) leads me to believe that she wouldn't sacrifice herself.

Who knows. Your theory is as good as anyone else's!

[AmishDude]

Rickman's best roles are when he is the smartest person in the room and has to endure the stupidity around him. He makes a hilarious comic villain.

[alwaysconservative]

Slughorn always got Ron's name wrong in the book. It might have been JKR's little inside joke, seeing how well Rupert Grint is doing in the role.

[alwaysconservative]

I also thought this book was much better than the last one. It seems that every author has a "fill" book that doesn't go smoothly from one point to another without excess padding, and IMO, OOTP was JKR's "fill" book.

I guessed early on who the Half-Blood Prince was, and am now more conflicted about Snape than ever. I thought the textbook was older than Harry's parents' generation, of which Snape was one. And someone who knew the spells and devised the charms that Snape did would have had much greater power to assist V than what Snape did. Think of how Snape threatened Quirrell in the first book, when Harry could have been done away with at no suspicion to himself. And I still think that D was/is smarter than to trust Snape on the basis of Harry's reasoning. . .

Just some random thoughts.

[SuziQ]

He's an outstanding actor. Dear Lord, that voice! *sigh*

Oh yeah! I once tried to read Thomas Hardy's "Return of the Native", and I just couldn't get through it. I found it on audio tape at the library with Alan Rickman reading it. I enjoyed it immensely!!

[AmishDude]

I wanted to get my theories down before I forget. First, I think JKR, having made the first 6 books have a similar structure and timeline will not break it here. Harry will not be able to go on his quest. He'll be forced or persuaded to stay at the school, perhaps as the DADA teacher. What is likely to happen is that he will discover that one of the horcruxes is at the school (having hunted down 3 of them over the summer).

With such a sappy theme: "Love is the most powerful magic of them all." she is not going to go off of her theme and she isn't going to make Snape untrustworthy. Dumbledore trusts him without question and without explanation. He'd never even hinted why, except in the trial scene where he stated that Snape came to the good side before Voldy was defeated.

First, a couple of early theories: The Dursleys are going to look more sympathetic and at the same time more horrific. Dumbledore hinted at something and I think it's that Dudley was offered admission to Hogwarts and they (probably Petunia) said no without telling him. But given the death and destruction in the magical world, who can blame them?

Harry will face the opportunity to use an unforgivable curse and will be conflicted. When he tries to use it, he will mean it, and it will either be against Voldy, Snape or himself.

The main theme is self-sacrifice. Harry may have to do such. Here's what I think will happen: They think the necklace was fenced by Fletcher, but it was horded by Kreature. They'll get the cup and the Ravenclaw artifact, which will be the main focus of the "mystery search" part of the book. They won't know what the sixth one is. I thought at first that it might have been Harry. That would force Harry to sacrifice himself. But now I'm not so sure. I think Naghini is a mistake by Dumbledore -- even he is not convinced. I think it's a Gryffindor artifact -- the sorting hat. The sorting hat continues to degrade its own job. It fits into the warning by Mr. Weasley in that you cannot see it's brain, even though the song in book for said that the founders "put a brain" in him. That's a strange choice of language (I would have used "mind") and sticks out.

My guess is that Snape loved Lily, she spurned him, but felt sorry for him. He lashed out at her out of frustration at his unrequited love in the flashback in book 5, but still felt it. When he heard the prophecy, it could have applied either to Harry or Neville. Neither was "marked" then. It was Snape who added something when he told Voldy to make him go after the Potters instead of the much more powerful Longbottoms. My guess is that Regulus Black was sent, but couldn't do it. It was then that he rebelled and enlisted the help of Snape -- remember the stuff in the bowl was a potion, of sorts, and I think Dumbledore was speaking as Snape when he found out that he wasn't going to be able to kill just Harry, that Voldy was going to kill Lily if he had to. Voldy discovered RAB's treachery, but not Snape's.

At that point Snape made an Unbreakable Vow to protect Harry. Snape may sacrifice himself to save Harry and finally end Voldy's rule.

Pettigrew's silver hand might be used to kill Greyback.

It will be interesting to see how Draco Malfoy is treated. Since he's redeemable, JKR will probably redeem him eventually.

But ultimately, there will be a showdown. Harry will have a disarmed Voldemort on the ground after a furious battle, Harry's wand pointed and say:

I know what you're thinking. "Did he destroy six horcruxes or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a phoenix-feather wand, the most powerful device in the wizarding world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?

[FreedomSurge]

Re read the scene with Mrs. Malfoy and her sister. Snape could easily have known nothing but been drawing information out of Mrs. Malfoy. Dumbledore tells Draco that he knew about the murder attempts from the beginning of the year. How could he have known? Snape told him. Snape could easily have killed DD only because of the promise he made Mrs. Malfoy. He was not part of that night's plan. He also saved HP's life. What he told the other deatheaters about LV wanting HP for himself could easily have been a lie told to save Harry's life. We don't yet know for sure whether Snape is evil. (Although the odds are that he is.)

[alwaysconservative]

I agree that the casting has been great; my only objection has been the new guy playing DD. He projects neither the kindness nor the wiseness that Richard Harris did.

Who will be playing Fleur, do you think?