[discostu]

There's nothing intellectually dishonest about it at all. Yes kids can get caught up in escapism, but they can just as easily get caught up in the escapism of an imaginary friend as the escapism of D&D, and at least in D&D there's the chance to learn some creative problem solving skills.

I still have my DD because it was the precious 1st edition that had Cthulhu and Melnibonian, before Chaosium got the game rights to both of those worlds and TSR was forced to take their pantheons out of the book. Yes D&D included stuff from various myths, but no where did it include encouragement to worship them in real life, there is no more pro-paganism in D&D than there is in Bulfinch's Mythologies.

No they did not glamorize "bad things", bad things were bad and the perveyors of bad things suffered. "Tell me why I have to be a power slave" "Can't you see it'll lead you to ruin" "this can't go on I must inform the law", that's not glorification. Yes they killed Eddie, of course Eddie is a demon, what's wrong with getting the fans encouraging you to kill a demon? Yes there is a dark fascination with evil and death in the music, like James Hetfield says "we can't all write songs about puppies and happy stuff", but songs can be about dark things and not be PRO dark things.

I know it first hand. Your kind drove me fleeing from Christianity because you were constantly trying to tell me I was a bad person because of my music and my games. It wasn't until I found a Christian that shared the same interests that I learned I could exist in both worlds. I escaped from the dungeon myself, the dungeon people like YOU put me in.

Sorry, my duty for the past 8 years has been setting up the panels and we've never had one of those panels. We have panels about creating a religion for you imaginary world, we have panels about earth bound religions surviving in space, and panels about religion in your character's lives. Go to the think in my bio page, the last couple of schedule are on there.

Very true. We also get scientists, writers, aspiring writers, artists, aspiring artists, successful business people, well read people looking for interesting philosophical discussions and a whole host of others. Funny how quickly you resort to crass generalizations and insults, very typical of the condemning Christians that drive people from the faith.

Yep there are wierd people in fandom, there are wierd people everywhere. Want to talk about people with wierd sexual practices, let's talk about some priests. Now it's unfair and rude to condemn all of Catholocism for the behavior of a few, and I won't do it, try doing me the same courtesy.

[Antoninus]

There's nothing intellectually dishonest about it at all. Yes kids can get caught up in escapism, but they can just as easily get caught up in the escapism of an imaginary friend as the escapism of D&D, and at least in D&D there's the chance to learn some creative problem solving skills.

You're stretching. Kids can also learn creative problem-solving without parents have to worry about them getting into the occult.

Yes D&D included stuff from various myths, but no where did it include encouragement to worship them in real life, there is no more pro-paganism in D&D than there is in Bulfinch's Mythologies.

If I remember correctly, your characters were encouraged to choose a patron deity, particularly the "clerics." And let me ask you--did you ever have a character with the alignment "lawful/neutral/chaotic" evil? If so, did you make sure that the character acted out his alignment?

No they did not glamorize "bad things", bad things were bad and the perveyors of bad things suffered. "Tell me why I have to be a power slave" "Can't you see it'll lead you to ruin" "this can't go on I must inform the law", that's not glorification.

You're crazy. Please allow me to quote the rest one of the songs you reference above:

This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or some crazy dream
but I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
they seem to mesmerise me...can't avoid their eyes
666 the Number of the Beast
666 the one for you and me
I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course.

Yes there is a dark fascination with evil and death in the music, like James Hetfield says "we can't all write songs about puppies and happy stuff", but songs can be about dark things and not be PRO dark things.

There's a false dichotomy if ever I've seen one. Plenty of great artists have been able to write about "dark things" without celebrating them--and drawing a bright line as to what is good and what is evil. Most modern fantasy/sci-fi writing and music fails at this utterly because the writers are steeped in post-modern relativism or cheesy gnosticism.

Your kind drove me fleeing from Christianity because you were constantly trying to tell me I was a bad person because of my music and my games.

I don't recall telling you that. "Bad"? no. A bit naive? Probably. But hey, I've been in your shoes. It came to a point in my life where I could have chosen the 'games and music' or God. I chose God.

It wasn't until I found a Christian that shared the same interests that I learned I could exist in both worlds. I escaped from the dungeon myself, the dungeon people like YOU put me in.

You can not serve two masters. One day, you'll have to choose between God and Mammon. There is no middle path.

Sorry, my duty for the past 8 years has been setting up the panels and we've never had one of those panels.

Well, I'm telling you right now, of the dozen or so cons I've been to, when there's a religion panel at all, it was ALWAYS anti-Christian ... virulently.

Funny how quickly you resort to crass generalizations and insults, very typical of the condemning Christians that drive people from the faith.

Is a description or reality as I see it an insult? Claiming that "evil" people like me drove you from the faith is just an excuse. You drove yourself from the faith and use the actions of others as a CYA.

Yep there are wierd people in fandom, there are wierd people everywhere.

Yes, but it's the concentration that counts. And the definition of the word "weird." I suspect in your mind, there's little difference between "weird" and "utterly depraved."

Want to talk about people with wierd sexual practices, let's talk about some priests.

I would posit that those self-same priests are ones most likely to attend a sci-fi/fantasy con.

Now it's unfair and rude to condemn all of Catholocism for the behavior of a few, and I won't do it, try doing me the same courtesy.

Sorry, I didn't realize that fandom held the status of a religion in your life.

That said, it would be perfectly valid for you to condemn the actions of these corrupt Catholic priest--especially considering that such priests are acting in direct contradiction of the moral teachings they are supposed to endorse and propagate. There's plenty there to criticize and I as a Catholic, am the first to do so.

However, your defense of the Church of Fandom admits no similar error. There is MUCH there to be critical of that you cavalierly excuse and dismiss.