[Antoninus]

There's nothing intellectually dishonest about it at all. Yes kids can get caught up in escapism, but they can just as easily get caught up in the escapism of an imaginary friend as the escapism of D&D, and at least in D&D there's the chance to learn some creative problem solving skills.

You're stretching. Kids can also learn creative problem-solving without parents have to worry about them getting into the occult.

Yes D&D included stuff from various myths, but no where did it include encouragement to worship them in real life, there is no more pro-paganism in D&D than there is in Bulfinch's Mythologies.

If I remember correctly, your characters were encouraged to choose a patron deity, particularly the "clerics." And let me ask you--did you ever have a character with the alignment "lawful/neutral/chaotic" evil? If so, did you make sure that the character acted out his alignment?

No they did not glamorize "bad things", bad things were bad and the perveyors of bad things suffered. "Tell me why I have to be a power slave" "Can't you see it'll lead you to ruin" "this can't go on I must inform the law", that's not glorification.

You're crazy. Please allow me to quote the rest one of the songs you reference above:

This can't go on I must inform the law
Can this still be real or some crazy dream
but I feel drawn towards the evil chanting hordes
they seem to mesmerise me...can't avoid their eyes
666 the Number of the Beast
666 the one for you and me
I'm coming back I will return
And I'll possess your body and I'll make you burn
I have the fire I have the force
I have the power to make my evil take its course.

Yes there is a dark fascination with evil and death in the music, like James Hetfield says "we can't all write songs about puppies and happy stuff", but songs can be about dark things and not be PRO dark things.

There's a false dichotomy if ever I've seen one. Plenty of great artists have been able to write about "dark things" without celebrating them--and drawing a bright line as to what is good and what is evil. Most modern fantasy/sci-fi writing and music fails at this utterly because the writers are steeped in post-modern relativism or cheesy gnosticism.

Your kind drove me fleeing from Christianity because you were constantly trying to tell me I was a bad person because of my music and my games.

I don't recall telling you that. "Bad"? no. A bit naive? Probably. But hey, I've been in your shoes. It came to a point in my life where I could have chosen the 'games and music' or God. I chose God.

It wasn't until I found a Christian that shared the same interests that I learned I could exist in both worlds. I escaped from the dungeon myself, the dungeon people like YOU put me in.

You can not serve two masters. One day, you'll have to choose between God and Mammon. There is no middle path.

Sorry, my duty for the past 8 years has been setting up the panels and we've never had one of those panels.

Well, I'm telling you right now, of the dozen or so cons I've been to, when there's a religion panel at all, it was ALWAYS anti-Christian ... virulently.

Funny how quickly you resort to crass generalizations and insults, very typical of the condemning Christians that drive people from the faith.

Is a description or reality as I see it an insult? Claiming that "evil" people like me drove you from the faith is just an excuse. You drove yourself from the faith and use the actions of others as a CYA.

Yep there are wierd people in fandom, there are wierd people everywhere.

Yes, but it's the concentration that counts. And the definition of the word "weird." I suspect in your mind, there's little difference between "weird" and "utterly depraved."

Want to talk about people with wierd sexual practices, let's talk about some priests.

I would posit that those self-same priests are ones most likely to attend a sci-fi/fantasy con.

Now it's unfair and rude to condemn all of Catholocism for the behavior of a few, and I won't do it, try doing me the same courtesy.

Sorry, I didn't realize that fandom held the status of a religion in your life.

That said, it would be perfectly valid for you to condemn the actions of these corrupt Catholic priest--especially considering that such priests are acting in direct contradiction of the moral teachings they are supposed to endorse and propagate. There's plenty there to criticize and I as a Catholic, am the first to do so.

However, your defense of the Church of Fandom admits no similar error. There is MUCH there to be critical of that you cavalierly excuse and dismiss.

[discostu]

Not stretching at all. Assuming you don't have a monty hall or killer GM you do learn creative problem solving in gaming, and you don't have to worry about them getting into the occult from D&D. I never said it was the only way a kid can learn that, I just said that as far as escapist behavior goes at least that type of escapism has an up side.

Well of course Clerics had to pick a patron diety, they're CLERICS. Just like in the real world, if your character wants to devote himself to a god you need to pick the god and flavor of worship, out here in reality you can't become a pastor without picking a religion and denomination. Of course unlike the real world your GM can just decide to blow off that rule and let you be a generic cleric (rhyme purely accidental, but I like it), unless you were playing in an officially sanctioned tournament all rules in D&D are optional, said so in the intro of the DM's Guide. According to the DM's guide "evil" alignment was merely self serving and didn't care about anybody else, "evil" characters didn't really have to be evil just self serving jerks, when I was GMing I always said no evil alignments because good roleplaying of it meant bad team cohesion (nobody ever trusts evil characters to share information or treasure, sharing was vitally important to survival in my campaigns, my motto was "the party that gets along lives"). Of course in the end it's all just roleplaying, what's the functional difference between playing an evil D&D character and playing the Devil in a production of Faust? Finding out how the other half lives can be instructive in why you should be glad you're not part of the other half.

And what happens to that character in the song? They started a summoning and got possessed, now their soul is destroyed and they've become the tool of Satan, a definite warning against the occult.

There's no false dichotomy at all. Yes plenty of artists can write about dark things without praising them, like Scott Harris, Ozzy Osbourne, Eric Bloom, and Ronnie James Dio. None of them praised any of the dark things they sang about (or in Harris' case made others sing about). Wrong wrong wrong, fantasy metal writers are steeped in presenting evil in an unabashed way, taking the covers off and showing its true colors. There's no relativism in fantasy metal, if you play with demons you're hosed, if you open the door to evil forces they will win, the best you can hope for in fantasy if you play with the occult is to merely lose your life.

I chose God and games and music because they are not contradictory. If God is so against fantasy metal then why did he give Dio the perfect voice for it? Dio's God given talent is in making songs about people who do stupid things with evil forces and pay the ultimate price, and to wrap that up with spooky vocal qualities that truly sell how ultimate that price is. But it was people like you that tried to force me to make a choice based on a false dichotomy they inserted, and when given the choice between enjoying the non-sinful pleasures God had placed before me and associating with people that have a knee jerk need to condemn and belittle people I walked away from Christianity until God placed in my life a non-condemning Christian who helped me understand how foolish the condemners are and what a small minority they are. Then I understood, and came back to my faith, and now fight against your kind because I know personally just how damaging you are to people's faith, everything you accuse D&D and fantasy metal and HP of being is what you are, you send people away from the faith, you send people to investigate the occult in search of some alternate way that doesn't have people that condemn others for fun.

I'm not serving two masters, I'm not on a middle path, nothing in my gaming hobbies or music serves Mammon.

And I'm telling you you were at the wrong conventions. Of course with people like you running around condemning people for the music they listen to it's easy to see why those around you would get a false impression of Christianity. I'm against the type of Christianity you represent, Christianity should be about embracing and helping and teaching, not ridiculing and blindly condemning.

if you chose to see reality in the most insulting terms then it is an insult to describe reality as you see it. No it was people like you that drove me from the faith, exactly as you're trying to do now. People creating a false conflict and telling me I need to chose, there is no conflict, and if I truly must chose then I chose to not take the path you took because it obviously leads to a frightening level of narrowmindedness and holier than thou BS.

Weird is a blanket term, depraved people are weird, weirder than most weird people but still weird.

Fandom doesn't hold the status of religion. Merely talking about two demographics of people that have perverts among them, one is fandom, one is Catholics. I do condemn the behavior of these priests, but I don't condemn all Catholics because of them, I understand the difference between the high profile exception to the group and the less news worthy norm. I haven't excused or dismissed anything, if we run into pedophiles in fandom we get rid of them and assist in the investigation, which is something no Catholic will be able to say in total honesty until Cardinal Law is sent back to America to face charges.