Liberal looking to understand

FreeRepublic ^ | 1996 | webmaster@freerepublic.com

[MeekOneGOP]

Three total is what I've seen.

JB III is still alive, too.

[sweetliberty]

Not very creative, is he?

[MeekOneGOP]

Right. What's a Jutboy, I wonder?

[KC Burke]

Justin, First off, remember that the term "liberal" was invented long after the classical age of liberalism was born in the 17th and 18th century. It was born amongst the Whig Party of Britain and only emulated and imitated by the Enlightenment Phiosophes of France.

The Old Whigs were not Tories in the sense of defending the King at all costs, but instead fought court corruption and defended private property and liberty. The defining old Whig was Edmund Burke, the father of conservatism, again a term that didn't exist in his time.

I suggest you forget terms and approach history. Read about what distinguishes the different traditions of liberty.

Once you know history you may decide that Big Government and General Will weren't the answer for Revolutionary France then and aren't the answer or substitute for our Federal system today.

You will also learn that group rights aren't a substitute for real individual rights and that if government grants it to your group, it can surely remove it.

The best answer to your question has little to do with taxes and the needy, but more to do with government power and understanding that if you believe in an Enduring Moral Order rather than the opinion of fashion and situational ethics, you probably are actually a conservative, Party aside.

Charity isn't owned by either Party or any political camp.

[SwankyC]

Please take the time to explain and not just spread more hate.

hahahahah. That's why you dont understand. You think youre intelligent but, welllll....

[TASMANIANRED]

Since you appear to be genuine rather than just another Democrat disruptor, I will address your remarks respectfully.

I am assuming that although you consider yourself a liberal at this point you are uneasy with this position . Most liberals just paint horns on Conservatives and demonize them and are completely convicted in their belief in the correctness of their viewpoint.


You are a victim of your youth and your liberal education.

Most peoples perspective is dependent on their own experience and most people do not begin to pay attention to anything outside of their family till sometime around age 12. Your perspective only goes back to 1995. Your experience only encompasses 4.3% of the life of the Republic of the United States. You were born during the Regan administration and have no real idea of what came before.

How do I know you have had a liberal indoctrination. There was a revolution in education that started in the 1970's. It was quiet at first, limited to the liberal arts but with the near social revolution in society at large, academia capitulated. The Universities fell first and the schools of education were among the first to fall. Teachers are indoctrinated with the America is wrong and Capitalism is wrong venom and they went forth and indoctrinated the children that they were entrusted with.

Standard of Education in the US has been falling for 2 generations. It's not a question of money. It is a question of the quality of teachers and the politically motivated desire to spread the hate the US into every subject. Fact: Schools of Education are populated by college entrants with the lowest Sat scores and have the lowest GPA's of any group of majors . Most teachers do not know their subject matter because their degree is in Education. Prior to the 1970's not all but many Math majors taught math, Biology majors taught Biology, on and on. We are speaking of teachers for K-12.

Most of us here at Free Republic have a perspective that reaches much farther back than yours. Many of us came in their maturity during the Regan years, or during the Vietnam years , during the early Cold War and Korea and a shrinking number of us came into maturity during WWII. We know a United States radically different from you.

You have never known a time that abortion was not legal, when most homes had a computer, when a cell phone wasn't standard, when central air in the home wasn't the norm, when every home had multiple cars, when microwave ovens weren't standard, when God and religion hadn't been stripped from the public square but was a central feature in the vast majority of both homes and schools and government offices.

Having a victim mentality used to be a shameful thing, now it is an industry on the left.

As a psychology major and a worker in mental health you should know that buying into a victim mentality is the most dis empowering world view that anyone can embrace.
Endorsing victim status keeps you mired in misery, prevents you from moving forward and leaves you helpless to improve your own position. Much of mental health and I am not speaking of people who have major mental illness, is involved in helping people move through trauma and loss to reclaim their power over their lives.

Liberalism is entirely dependent on perpetuating victim status in as many people as possible. All of the liberal policies have worked out to be political malpractice. If in your field you sought to strip people of their ability to cope, their ability to stand up for themselves, their ability to control their own fate and moved them to a state of worse functioning rather than improved functioning you would be sued and held in contempt by your peers.

Liberal politicians have done just this. Johnson's Great Society welfare system was supposed to end poverty , instead it broke the back of minority family's. Since the beginning of time a 2 parent family with a man and a woman working together for the welfare of their children was the foundation of all successful society's. The Great Society measures made a cash payout to dependent children as long as there wasn't an adult male in the family to work and support them.

The result of this measure was adult men got moved out. Women rather than marry a man and raise a family with him alone started having family's with multiple men, many children and encouraging their dependent daughters to start having children as early as possible so they would be eligible for the welfare checks. Unwed births rather than being a rarity move to 76% of black babies being born to unwed mothers. Mothers that have babies at 13-14 have nothing to give to their children because they are children themselves. They were dropouts therefore do not value education and do not impart a love of learning to their children. Working hard became a measure of acting white and intelligent black children that wanted to learn faced daily beatings by their peers.

Children were essentially raised in the streets and the gang phenomena became dominant in whole neighborhoods. Crime and drugs is viewed as legitimate employment. Look at the hip hop culture. Gangsta rap is the embodiment of their highest aspirations. Liberals look at the hight rate of incarceration of young black males and see racism. Conservatives look at it and see the natural consequence of kids being raised by kids with no father in the home, no education and no adult male guidance.

The primary difference between liberal and conservative is liberals reason from emotion and never weigh outcome, Conservatives reason from logic and experience and always weigh outcome.

This discussion would and has filled multiple books. I have just provided a thumbnail sketch virtually every sentence you brought up would be the subject of a book. If you are serious I would recommend reading. Start out with Thomas Sowell for economics, Disousa for a historical perspective, Victor David Hanson for some hard history. There are many others.

Frankly I would be enraged if I thought virtually everything that I had been taught was erroneous. If you truly have an inquisitive mind I wish you very well on your journey. If you are a true believer in liberalism, I wish you well because you have a lifetime of misery ahead of you.

[mrsmel]

I'm saving your post, it explains to me my own beliefs in conservatism vs socialism,and the destruction of society socialism causes,clearly and succintly. AND it will be perfect to explain this position to some of my younger relatives who are still on the "searching" path.

[William Terrell]

Sure, thanks. Use it all you want.

[MoochPooch]

At the risk of getting zotted myself, I'll put in my $.02.

Somewhere in between the liberal and conservative camps lies the land of the moderates. (Maybe right of center?)

Some of us believe the government should provide a safety net for the poor & needy -- but not enable the socially irresponsible or dysfunctional. Not all of us believe abortion should be totally outlawed -- rather, restricted to certain cases where the mother's life is in danger. The issue isn't whether or not the fetus is a life -- it is -- but when does the mother's welfare come first. Generally, though, I find that conservatives understand the value of life.

I could go on and on here. The bottom line is, to look at the REAL issue, and take it from there. For example: it's not, should we spend money on government programs. Rather, do government programs work? Or which ones? Is any good coming out of these programs? Or are we just throwing good money after bad? Even a privately funded charity would undergo this kind of scrutiny. Basically, the issue here is
personal versus public responsibility.

Not everything is black & white. While some issues are morally based (i.e. homosexuality), others do have room for debate & compromise. Believe it or not, being religiously educated, and having religious leaders to look up to, helps me make more informed choices, rather than just following my own, often distorted, thinking.

Most, if not all liberals, seem to be highly secular. I was once one of them. Looking back, I realize how confused I was.

[SolidRedState]

On a whole, ...Preperation H feels good, on the hole.

[wolfpat]

Good post. I have only one problem with it.
I disagree that homosexuality is strictly a moral issue. I object to the normalization of the homosexual lifestyle. The contention of the left is that homosexuals are just another minority. They're not. Americans of African descent did not choose to be of African descent. Americans of Hispanic descent did not choose to have Spanish origins. I didn't choose ancestors from Ireland. But some homosexuals choose to be homosexual, while others suffered some trauma that upset their sexual orientation. Reports of studies to the contrary are misleading at best. These reports are MSM misinterpretations of what the reports actually say. I've read some of the studies, and they draw no firm conclusions.

[MoochPooch]

I agree with you, actually, about homosexuality. Sorry I was vague in my post, but I was finishing it in a hurry.

Although I think gays should be left alone, they should not confuse tolerance with acceptance. Maybe this is a moral issue, in that I'm projecting religious values onto it, but I think it is a myth that any subject can be approached value-free. Even the Constitution has Judeo-Christian roots.

A moderate, maybe, would feel laissez-faire toward those who are different. A conservative might feel otherwise (although there are degrees here, too). I know of a synagogue that passed around a petition that homosexuality should get the death penalty. I would have been reluctant to sign that, feeling that we have to have some compassion toward those who are afflicted.

But even moderates have their limits. What is permitted (or at least overlooked) should not be encouraged. What gays do in private may not get my attention. Those who wave it in my face will get my condemnation.

[Jutboy3]

FreeKeys: I don't think anyone thinks the government owns them, and I know I don't, but I will read that article. About the creating a government: It is one thing if someone is instilled who are more benifical to our government, as in the case in Ecuador or Panama. Zavien Doombringer: Being gay is who they are, someone does not choose to be homosexual, just as someone does not choose to be heterosexual. Where are homosexuals going to "learn" this behavior from, if it is indeed a behavior, their parents? Do you honestly believe Dick Cheny's daughter learned it from him? William Terrell: If you want to help the less fortunate, then you must support the basic idea of the welfare system. I understand that people do exploit the system and just take the money and do not contribute to society at all, however you can't generalize everyone on welfare to the few that do exploit the system. There is a problem with the current welfare system, but instead of completly abolishing it we should fix it; offer job training, instead of just giving them money, help them get a job, help them to get off welfare, as opposed to just staying on it and collecting cash. mhking: Thank you for explaining and I assure you I'm trying to spark conversation for the benift of all. 506trooper: I don't know if you have been reading the post but this is one of the multiple times I have respond to multiple people's posts, and if you did read my posts then you would know I have a BA in psychology [" Get an education (formal and informal)"] KingProut: What I meant by that was that liberals are generally more open, and tolerent to new ideas. Homosexuality is a good example, I am completly tolerent, you have zero. FourtySeven 3 letter programs The New Deal (a democrat program) Monroe Doctrine Pure Food and Drug act Forest Reserves act I won't go on but I'm sure there are more. KC Burke: I understand what you are saying, but why must we constantly argue as opposed to work together and solve common world problems? TASMANIANRED: Because I am younger and wasn't alive I don't know what happened before I was born? " You have never known a time that abortion was not legal, when most homes had a computer, when a cell phone wasn't standard..." I personally have never known this, but I am forever grateful for my fortune. I do know, however, that millions of people are dying becuase they do not have food, or sanitation. This is the one of the main problems here, I am not concerned with myself as I am for the others in the U.S. and in foreign countries. I do not feel like I am a victim at all, and I don't know what made you think otherwise, I feel quite the opposite. I think I am extremely more fortunate then others and that I should help those less fortunate. "liberals reason from emotion and never weigh outcome, Conservatives reason from logic and experience and always weigh outcome." This I find extremely odd because I feel exactly the opposite. The war in Iraq was illogical and the outcome was bad. (breif example of my thinking) As for the books I will definatly check those out, I am always eager to explore new ideas and veiwpoints to further my understanding, thank you. As for the teachings from my school, I do believe that what I was taught was stretched truth, not in the same way however. As I said I just finished Howard Zinn's A people's history of the United States, and what he talks about in there were never taught in my history class. To say that schools are teaching kids that Conservatives are bad, is just absurd because that is not happening at schools. MoochPooch: I agree, except for the generalization on liberals, but thanks for your contribution. SolidRedState: I'm glad that works out for you wolfpat: Homosexuals do not choose to be gay, a lot of them don't want to be gay because of the discriminaton against them that they have to deal with, although I suppose neither one of our theorys could ever be proven with tangiable evidence, but sexual orientation is just the way someone is. It is a part of who they are. (for some reason the spaces aren't showing up in the post, so I bolded all names, sorry)

[wolfpat]

Good post. We are in full agreement.

[wolfpat]

Homosexuality may be "a part of who they are" but only in the same way that bipolar disorder in some people is "a part of who they are."
There have been numerous studies trying to decide the nature/nurture argument. They all either point to the nurture side, or are inconclusive.
I personally know a number of women who are lesbians (They like strip clubs too). All of them have told me they felt they were always attracted to women. All of them have also told me they were molested as children. I realize anecdotal evidence is not proof, but it's coincidental enough for me to think there's something there.
And there are a number of people today who did choose to be gay. These are the people who conform to trends like sheep. And there is a certain degree of fashionableness to being gay these days.

[wolfpat]

In your reply to Tasmanianred you say, "The war in Iraq was illogical and the outcome was bad."
The war in Iraq was not only not illogical, it was brilliant. You need to realize that Al Qaeda is not the only terrorist organization that is at war with us. Iraq was the logical next step in the war on terrorism. We know Saddam Hussein had WMDs at one time. We know he never documented to the UN that any of them were destroyed. We know he was reaping huge benefits from the "Oil for Food" program. We know Hussein was providing pecuniary support to the families of homicide bombers. We know there was collaboration between Al Qaeda and Iraq, including a training camp in Iraq. It's brilliant because it now puts a democratically elected government to the West of Iran to match the democratically elected government in Afghanistan to the East. This also bottles up Syria with Iraq to the East and Israel to the West. As for how it's going now, it's going very, very well. I suggest you read up on the guerrilla activity on the part of Nazi holdouts after the surrender of Germany. At least the insurgents in Iraq, for the most part, aren't Iraqis. This gets back to the brilliance of the war. We've moved the terrorists war on us out of the US and into Iraq. As one soldier said, when it comes to the sport of war, away games are better than home games. And our wonderful troops are proving far superior to the opposition. 10 of our troops can easily defeat 100 of theirs, and still get back to the base for evening mess. And if I was 25 years younger, I'd be over there with them.

[mysto]

You just don't know when to quit, do you? I think you should change your name to ZOTboy. Here's 3 ZOTs...
One for Jutboy... ...one for Jutboy2...
...and one for Jutboy3...

[grounhog]

You seem to be experiencing testicle difficulties.Hope the trouble is not in your set.....

[MeekOneGOP]

Has Jutboy4 been "created" yet?

Bye, Jutboy3.

"He's dead, Jim!"

[MeekOneGOP]

hahahaaaa!