Posted on 10/28/2004 6:43:59 PM PDT by Sonar5
Hi all,
I need some help and I am fuming about this. Today an incident happened at my son's school that concerns me greatly.
He is in 4th Grade and is age nine. One of his friends brought a small pocket knife to school and allegedly showed it to my son and others at their lunch table. Apparently he did not open the blade, and quickly put it away. No one was threatened. They are all friends in scouts, church, or sports.
One of the other children after lunch, not mine, told a teacher about it. I get a phone call at about 1:15 stating my son was involved in an incident at school. I ask first is he ok, the administrator says yes.
She then explains that my son and others failed to tell an adult or teacher they saw someone else with a knife at school and that she questioned my son. I asked if he was threatened, and she replied no.
She stated the student who brought it would probably be expelled. I thought that was the end of it, since my son didn't bring the knife, no one was threatened, and my son, nor anyone else held it, nor was the blade even shown.
First off, these are 9 year olds. And I'm ok with the kid that told, and whatever happens to the kid that brought it happens. My son didn't feel it was serious.
My concern is the treatment of my son as having done something wrong.
My son got home about 3:40 or so, and I immediately asked him what happened, who was involved, was he threatened, did he or anyone else hold it, etc....
He then told me he was interrogated without my knowledge inside a closed room with only him and the administrator and talked to about what he did wrong by not telling an adult, asked questions, and the administrator was writing down the responses. Two other children who did not say anything were also subjected to this interrogation, seperately.
He and the two others were then pulled out of class before recess and during recess were taken to the office where they, without my knowledge were coerced into writing false statements stating they made bad choices by not telling an adult, and one other example of making a bad choice.
All three were told if they did not bring the form signed by a parent tomorrow, they would miss recess.
So, now my son is made out to have done something wrong. By the way, the administrator signed the form at the top.
My son was never advised of his rights to call us, and have us present, was never advised why he had to write the form, and we were never notified of the form until our son arrived home.
My son is in Scouting and considers a knife a tool, and knows the difference between showing something and getting threatened. He has also been trained in the proper use of a knife, a safety circle, etc... He knew what the student did was wrong, and he knew not to bring those types of items to school.
So what would you do.
We are not signing the form, and I talked to him about his rights, and the fact he did nothing wrong, the student who told did nothing wrong, the only one who did something wrong was the student who brought it, and the way he was treated.
I then went into explaining his rights to him, and about no longer answering any questions without us present.
So put yourself in my shoes, and ask what you would do. I felt the initial incident was no big deal, neither did my son at first. Now I feel my son and we as parents were violated in our rights, as well as our sons.
BTW - I tried calling the administrator who called earlier, and tried to tell her we were not returning the form, and we feel he shouldn't have to miss recess, and be punished, and she replied she didn't like my tone, and then stated the conversation is over, and hung up on me. Nice, huh?
Any help would be appreciated.
Regards, Sonar5
Sonar, wizardoz gives the best advice on the thread so far, and I've already made 2 comments! Although I must say, don't listen to the advice contained in his tagline!
Wrong, no Fifth Amendment rights implicated. This was an administrative, not a criminal proceeding. Below is the Fifth Amendment, in full.
"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I think that happened to me once in Elementary School (I am concerned about the younger kids mostly), I left the school and went home and got a parent!
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The police "interrogate" witnesses all the time who are not suspected of wrong doing.
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The assistant principal is not the police. The police do not, or should not, interview or interrogate minors unwitnessed.
I agree with you, Finny...this whole thing has gone way too far. That said....
Sonar...I just talked with a friend who works in a CA school district office. She confirmed what I felt. It was WRONG, big time, for your child to be questioned without your being there.
And ESPECIALLY to have to sign the form. She asked me a couple of times..."He's only NINE??? And THIS happened?".
She also confirmed that that form will now remain in his records, from here on out. She said to take care of it legally.
It is against the rules to not tell an adult if a kid has a weapon. Maybe you wouldn't have written that rule, but the school this parent sent his child to did, and the parent would be wise to not subvert the authority the school has to make and enforce rules.
He did break the rule, the statement isn't false. He didn't want to tell on a friend, no one does. But he learned that hanging out with friends who break the rules will sometimes get him in trouble too and force him into tough choices over right and wrong. Not a bad lesson at nine, next it will be a friend with cigarettes, a joint, some beer.... What do you want to emphasize to your child? That there are rules, or that the rules don't matter if it's a friend, and he's cool?
Here is the parent's account of the incident in his own words:
He then told me he was interrogated without my knowledge inside a closed room with only him and the administrator and talked to about what he did wrong by not telling an adult, asked questions, and the administrator was writing down the responses. Two other children who did not say anything were also subjected to this interrogation, seperately.
In other words:
A principal brought a child into the office. I don't see coercion there. I think every kid has gotten called down to the principal's office including "Charlie Brown" and "Beaver Cleaver."
A principal questioned a student and wrote down the responses. Again, questioning is not coercion. If it was, every witness in court is being "coerced."
If the principal had told the child he would be spanked or expelled if he didn't answer questions, that would be coercion or duress. Being asked what happened, in private, is not.
Public schools require the participation of parents in order to maintain discipline and to actually function as an institution to educate our children. I can't believe people are actually recommending you retain counsel to resolve this matter. If your son doesn't realize that a pocket knife is considered a weapon in today's society then you should educate him. Then you should make sure he knows the rules of the school he's attending and discipline him yourself when he breaks a rule.
My dad was a teacher for 30+ years and at the end of his career had a parent file an assault suit against him because he had to physically remove a kid from a climbing rope after he'd told the youngster (elementary school) to stay off the rope several times and the boy refused. A court case and lawyers fees because a parent couldn't face the fact that little johnny couldn't follow the rules.
Slap yourself and sign the form.
Why is this being treated like it is so radical? Teachers have been sending kids home with a NOTE pinned to them, that they must get signed by the parent, since long before I was in school. The signature shows that the parent saw it and knows what happened. Nothing more.
Permanent record? A note? You really think this is going to hurt some future presidential campaign? Good grief.
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Having to write he made a "bad choice" seems like an apology.
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I agree but that isn't what is going on. He is being coerced into admitting that he willfully acted or behaved inapproritately by not reporting his friends violation.
This is not an "interrogation" but an attempt to resolve a difficult problem. Legal rights? Puhlease, we can't go about Mirandizing students every time there is a problem. Standard procedure is to question the students away from the others in a quiet area..
For school administrators a knife on campus is a huge incident, a "10" on the Richter Scale, and is grounds for instant suspension.
Our principal sent home a student for bringing a knife (provided by the parent) with which to cut cheese. She hated to do it but felt it was necessary to enforce school policy. She gave all students a "heads-up" about this at the commencement of the year so there'd be no future confusion. Students are also told that if they see a knife they are to immediately report it to an adult supervisor or they would face disciplinary actions.
Your child is not being suspended and hasn't, to this point, missed even a recess; I'd say that is not too bad at all. In fact, it sounds as though the administrators are trying to be reasonable.
You could show up and make a scene, but II'd really think it through.
Instead, I'd have your child do the assignment and then attach a note explaining your point of view.
Keep what Brad's Gramma told you, too. You might need that for a civil case.
Discaimer:
I am not an attorney and am only involved in a discussion of policy and public news events. If you need legal assistance, contact a properly licensed attorney.
"Speaking as an attorney, I am amazed at the number of "conservatives" on this thread urging the poster to get a lawyer and/or sue. Do you really think this calls for legal action?"
That's what knee jerk liberals do or liberal lawyers like Edwards would encourage = JOB SECURITY FOR AMBULANCE CHASING LAWYERS.
The way you wrote this makes me think that the kid knew he was wrong to have the knife at school. Maybe all the boys were enjoying their little secret of the knife. Then one of them blabbed. I have no problem with the school enforcing the rules about knives at school, but I do have a problem with the way it's been handled. They should have involved you from the beginning. I speak from experience, as I was hauled into the principal's office in 6th grade for kicking a classmate in the shins. His parents were there. He was there. I was ganged up on. I kicked him because he groped me, but no one asked why, and I was too timid to tell them. I wish like hell my parents had been called in to help me deal with the adults.
"Gosh, I HOPE there will be some people here who agree with me and say so!"
You are 100% correct in what you say! I also really liked Politically co-WRECKED, that is a good one.
Now Finny, I must ask, are you Lamarr Alexander?
To clarify, you might need that as a reminder to yourself to find out what the School District policy is on that. But first, find out what a lawyer has to say about it.
So reasonable :~D
C'est le sarcasme! Tu ne comprends pas le sarcasme?
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