Posted on 03/09/2004 5:04:23 AM PST by Celtjew Libertarian
From all I'm reading, the central question surrounding Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ is whether or not Gibson is portraying the Jews as responsible for the death of Jesus and whether or not this is anti-Semitism. I have a different question, if you'll pardon it coming from a non-Christian who's not seen the movie and isn't terribly familiar with the Christian Bible: So what?
I understand history. I understand that blaming Jews for the death of Jesus was a cause of anti-Semitism in the past. Heck, my grandparents and great-grandparents came to America, fleeing that mindset. I understand that there are still nutcases around -- perhaps entire nutty societies, though not in the U.S. -- who hold this to be the case and say that today's Jews are responsible for what happened almost two-thousand years ago.
But I also understand that this is the United States. This is a nation founded on the belief in the individual. An American cannot legally be punished for the actions of their family (the one exception being parents sometimes being held responsible for the acts of minor children). What a parent does is not held against their children.
By that bedrock belief, to hold the Jews of today responsible for whatever was done by the Jews of Jesus's time -- and even then, by those relatively few Jews who called for Jesus's death (Jews were already rather widely dispersed through the Roman Empire at that time, even if the Diaspora had not yet occurred) -- is un-American. More than blaming children for the actions of parents, it is blaming people of today for what their potential fifty-plus-times-great-grandparents may or may not have done and said. It goes against the American belief of individual responsibility.
Again: So what? Those worried that Gibson's move is anti-Semitic could easily say, "Maybe the Jews killed Jesus. Maybe they didn't. But no one can be held responsible for what occurred two-thousand years ago." But they don't. Why not?
Take a look at the politics of most of the critics. They're on the political left. And among the views held on the political left is support of affirmative action. Many on the left support slave reparations. Many blame American actions for the acts of 9/11.
In short, most of the left believe in collective guilt. They may not call it that, but penalizing members of certain groups and rewarding others for misdeeds in the past is collective guilt. The left holds individuals guilty for the acts of their ancestors. The time span may be compressed, but the American left has the same anti-individualist mindset that murdered Jews, claiming they were responsible for the death of Jesus.
For the left to confront the possibility that Jews -- not THE Jews, but some Jews -- may have been complicit in the death of Jesus would require them to say that there is no such thing as collective guilt. For a political mindset that has its policies grounded in this same collective guilt, this is an impossible thing to do. Thus, they must attack the movie.
So what? So that.
I don't trade in groupthink. This is about one man's vision, i.e. Mel Gibson's movie. Some Jews and Christians have liked the movie, some have not. My view of the movie and the PR campaign which led up to the release of the movie has has zero to do with how I feel about Christians in general, which is that I have always seen Christians as my brothers, and fellow Americans, if we are speaking of America. It's not a huge, life-altering issue for me.
I can't help but wonder what catholic school you went to. When I was in Catholic Schools from 1955 through 1969 I NEVER once heard that Jews killed Jesus, but that, in fact, Jesus died because of MY sins and for me.
The Catholic orders associated with my education were of the Order of St.Joseph, Oblates of St.Francis, Jesuits, and St.Benedictine, for your info.
He was fully man and fully God. Hence, He felt all you would feel in a crucifixion - and then some. You wouldn't feel the weight and shame of the sins of the world for all time.
But AmChurch creatures like this liberanl nun you describe are just looking for any and every opportunity to sharpen their steely knives and strike at any traditional Roman Catholic -- like Mel Gibson (oh yes, and like me too). And FreeRepublic comes with its own AmChurch liberals who will also do the same honors if the liberal nun wasn't enough. Hold fast to what is true. You aren't confused. You've got it right. Spot on! Don't be dissuaded by nuns or deacons who sling their credentials so as to make you kow-tow to their position. You know the truth. Hold fast, and you will be able to withstand it all no matter what may come in the most evil of days.
Well, guess what Veronica, it is a huge thing for the American Christian Freepers that have been FreepMailing me to thank me for articulating their beliefs in defense of constant charges of "anti-Semitism".
These Christians tell me that these constant charges of anti-Semitism where there is none are making them frustrated and angry and they are puzzled as to why they are the recipient of such accusations. They also see it as very damaging to religious Christian-Jewish relations in America.
If you don't "trade in groupthink", then I presume you have gone and seen the movie yourself instead of relying on what others who have called it "anti-Semetic" have said about it.
In the post I replied to you on the other thread, you simply posted someone else's opinions of why it was "anti-Semitic".
I addressed each one of those charges, point by point, on Post 412 on that thread but you never addressed the issue. You simply keep parrotting the anti-Semitic charge.
And what am I in regards to religion? A very poor Catholic on good days and an agnostic most of the time.
Yes, I have seen the movie.
If in the minds of some discussions about the movie have been "very damaging to religious Christian-Jewish relations in America" that is indeed unfortunate. I don't see it that way at all.
I see the debate as being between fans of the movie, and those who just don't agree with Gibson's vision.
What would make you think your link in 38 (below) is a Jewish perspective.
The Jews are the architects of human wickedness? The holocaust was Christ’s vengence on the Jews? Jews brought the ovens on themselves?
I reject it. Christians on this site tell me it's not a Christian perspective. Are they wrong?
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Shalom everyone, I recognize that i am responsible for Yeshua's on the cross as a Jew. If you study the Gospels well, it is clear that the Jews bear prime responsabilty for killing Christ and we have since forth been cursed by God. The Jews are in many ways the architects of human wickedness.
"His blood be on our heads and on the heads of our children". This is a clear allusion to the curse that is upon the Jews. In fact, we may see the Shoa as a way in which Christ poured out his continued wrath upon the Jews for their evil. The ovens of Europe, so painful, were yet another example of the curse that is upon the Jews for killing his beloved.
We are no longer under the spiritual curse since we are in Yeshua (Romans 8), but because we are Jews, we are still part of the communal curse upon the Jews for their killing of Christ.
The Jews are a people who have lied and cheated God. They are the architects of the death of Yeshua and the suffering of the Jews throughout the ages is an example of the punishment inflicted for the jews not coming to Yeshua in faith. The Spirit of Ha Shaytan is deep within the Jews sadly. The Jews have destroyed America and have brought down curse after curse upon us.
I often times need to tell my Christian friends who are naive about the Jews that the Jews are NOT blessed and the Jews DID kill Yeshua. May Yeshua continue to teach our people their true wickedness so that through their own blood in suffering, they may come to everylasting faith in Moshiah.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever should believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life (John 3.16)
Those who don't agree with Gibson's vision are disloyal neocons. You need to pay more attention to the threads.
"We are no longer under the spiritual curse since we are in Yeshua (Romans 8), but because we are Jews, we are still part of the communal curse upon the Jews for their killing of Christ."
And I'm to believe it's his JEWISH perspective why?
Because Marty Rosen converted, became Pastor Rosen, a Baptist minister, came up with a snappy marketing plan and this guy buy's into it?
I doubt you'll find Jews who consider him Jewish. I won't call him Baptist either, I don't want to burden them with his despicable rant on Jewish guilt either.
Of course not. Wickeness is innate in all of us.
The holocaust was Christ’s vengence on the Jews? Jews brought the ovens on themselves?
How should I know? But I do know that for over 2000 years, the Jews did not have a country of their own or self rule. Also by ignoring Hitler's rise to power and allowing themselves to be disarmed without a fight, they went willingly to the concentration camps.
As a conservative you know that one of the principle beliefs is that you must be responsible for your own actions or in this case, your inaction. If a criminal can be guaranteed that his intended victims are unarmed, then he will be encouraged to victimize them.
What do you think the results of the Warsaw Ghetto massacre would have been if the Jews would have had 50,000 armed men instead of two dozen?
Don't try to read some type of anti-Semitism into it because it simply isn't there. Being a Southern Baptist in Tennessee, I have met few Jews and have no animosity towards them any more than I have against the residents of Lower Moldovia.
Our contemporary brain do nut understand that logic of punishing the children for the sins of the parent, indeed for the sins of the great great great great grand parents! But, if you reflect on the Semitic culture from the desert, and their barbaric tribal way of life, you would find that historically, people from the Mid East did just that. As a matter of fact in the bible, you read that the Jews cried out "his blood will be on us, and our children after us"! This illustrates how the thinking of that time that if some body wronged you, and you are unable to extract revenge from him, you may extract revenge on his children.
To make this discussion even more controversial, I would like to take you back to the first creation. God created Adam, and Eve, then they sinned, and then God was upset at their sins, and considered even their children, and children children to be sinners. Obviously God has a tribal desert mentality as well? Or, the bible was written by desert Semite type writers?
That's a "yes." And it's astoundingly wrong.
Great. So, what scenes specifically were "anti-Semitic"?
What dialogue specifically was "anti-Semitic"?
As I noted on another thread:
Millions upon millions of Christian Americans are conecting very deeply with the religious meaning of this movie. Labelling it "anti-Semitic" without specifically saying why does not call each of them, as an individual, "anti-Semitic". It merely calls the defining event of their religious belief system "anti-Semitic".
YOU posted "His blood be on our heads and on the heads of our children". This is a clear allusion to the curse that is upon the Jews. In fact, we may see the Shoa as a way in which Christ poured out his continued wrath upon the Jews for their evil. The ovens of Europe, so painful, were yet another example of the curse that is upon the Jews for killing his beloved. , not me.
If you believe that, great, I'm not interested in hearing you parse the explanation. If you don't believe it, you should read what you post.
Those were two different paragraphs, which you lumped into one. Pretty cheap shot. :) I have not shared my opinion of the movie here at FR.
Millions upon millions of Christian Americans are conecting very deeply with the religious meaning of this movie.
I know that. And some Jews have appreciated it too. David Horowitz, and others. That's their experience and I respect that.
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