I hated Rotk (vanity ranting thread) ((spoiler alert))

ME | Today- december 18th, 2003 | Me

[ecurbh]

...hurt the fundamental plausibility of the story, since putting the ring that close to a Nazgul, in Osgiliath, would have made Sauron especially alert to the western approach to his kingdom.

OK, this I have to disagree with. In the book, the ring is that close to a Nazgul in Minas Morgul - even closer to Mordor than Osgiliath! Frodo Sam and Gollum are hiding behind a rock as the army marches out with the Witch-King riding at the head. He stops and sniffs around because he can sense the ring is nearby. Frodo's hand reaches for the ring and is about to put it on, but manages to grab the star-glass instead, and the Nazgul rides on. And because of this, the orcs in Cirith Ungol are alerted that there are spies on the stairs and are keeping watch over the pass. Sauron WAS alerted to the western approach to his kingdom.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Thats true, I was just disappointed, I think it was good over all but there were many little things that wrecked it for me.

[HairOfTheDog]

There are many feats of strength that people find in themselves, or strength God grants us, when we ~really~ need it.

I am sorry someone peed in your cornflakes.... I am glad you have found others who agree... I was hoping you would have someone else to talk to.... I would rather find good in it with others who enjoyed it than devour it with you. There are flaws any Tolkien fan can find in the incorrect telling of their favorite spot. But by listing so many just plain nit-picky grievances.... you have taken most of the credibility out of all of your complaints for me. Yours is not the discussion of some finer point that might have been missed in the film, yours is a scorched earth review that will leave nothing beautiful left standing. You have buried the lead, as they say in news.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think there is no more joy to be found on this thread for us..... But if I find any more like FBF.... I will send them this way.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Your so nice.

I couldn't understand all the reviews it got, that treated it as good as FOTR.

And your right about Aragorn. It was like with the whole movie. They could have cut half the scenes in half and gave some character development. And then when he was riding around on the horse in front of the black gates giving the speech, it was empty, I was at least expecting something like the trailer, no music, no tenderness is left.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Then prove me wrong, Pj obviously thought it was great and had a reason for everything he did. I couldn't figure it out.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Really?

I am just exploring it, I already contradicted myself once. I want to know two things. 1 am I the only person who didn't love it? and 2. The people who did love it what did they think of these scenes?

I don't want to run it down, just understand it. I don't get how anyone allowed this to happen. And there was good in it. I loved almost every scene I didn't list. Especially when Pippin is singing and Faramir is going out to prove his worth or die, wonderful. Pippin and Merry were wonderful characters, much better than in fotr and ttt.

[HairOfTheDog]

Really.

[Corin Stormhands]

Then prove me wrong...

That is neither my job nor my desire. Perhaps you will be visited by three leftover spirits from the Paths of the Dead.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Then why comment in a sideways way and then tell me to take a hike?

[Corin Stormhands]

Never mind.

[Hegewisch Dupa]

I agree that should should have filmed the Grey Havens scenes on location

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Yes. This is just my opinion. I don't think less of anyone who liked it, and I really want to. I wanted input from those of you who liked it. Like 'well it was OK for this to happen because it did this and that'. I am allowed to have a opinion, am I not? I wasn't insulting you, the movie or anyone. I just want to understand the things I disliked and find out how others viewed and liked them.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I forgive you. (even though your not sorry and don't pretend like you are)

[HairOfTheDog]

I could convince you that you would like all the scenes I like if you could only think like me. But I don't want to pollute my mind with all the garbage you wrote in order to do that. In the process.... I risk having my energy and joy sucked out and digested by you. I love talking about this subject with others, but I don't have to give you the attention you demand.

Go see it again if you want to like it. If you want to like it stop seeking and encouraging others who also hate it to come validate you. Or Hate it. It is not mine to decide.

[discostu]

OK, here's my point by point "rebuttal", not really a rebuttal just my opinion which happens to be exactly the opposite of your 99% of the time.

1. Everyone knew and understood Gollum/Smeagol without having or wanting to watch him murder Deagol. It was totally sick and unnecessary.

I think this was to give Serkin a chance to get an actor nomination since the Academy said last year he wasn't eligible because he was never on camera. Also it helps re-establish the sympathetic roots of Smeagol and the corrupting influence of the ring.

2. Frodo was somewhat 'normal' at the end of TTT, and in the beggining of ROTK Frodo is like corrupted and half dead. The transition from good to corrupted was divided in to threes instead of being smootly worked out.

Frodo might have been normal at the very end of TTT but he was in zombie mode the scene before. He started hitting zombie mode early in TTT and it was gradually getting more frequent and more severe though he still had moments of clarity all the way until the end. If you've ever known people that were drug addicts you've seen this cycle and how it's done in the movie makes perfect sense.

3. Theoden being relctuant about comming to Gondor's aid. Then when the beacon is lit, he is like Yea, like you even have to ask me to come.

Theoden was reluctant, the Aragorn talked to him, and inbetween the talk and the beacon being lit he'd changed his mind and agreed with Aragorn, BFD.

4. Everything about Denethor. Mostly bad, a little good.

Denethor isn't a great character in the book either, not as bad but not much more good.

5. The way Denethor treated Faramir. While it was close to the books it didn't have the same emotional feel. Alot of Rotk didn't envok the same feelings as the book did.

Close to the book but not an exact replica of the book, not a very insightful complaint.

6. The Gollum and the lembas scene. Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted.

Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted true, Frodo also didn't have to have his finger bitten off in the book for the effectiveness of being corrupted. It's called dramatic license and everybody that makes works of fiction uses it.

7. The women and children in Minas Tirith. It made the city look totally unpopulated.

I don't know where you were looking but Minas Tirith was PACKED with women and children all the way up until the orc assault started, I presume at that point the non-combatants were hiding and praying and staying out of the way which is what non-combatants are supposed to do during combat.

8. When Eowyn gave Merry his armor and then she said 'why cant he fight for those he loves' She looked like it was her underlying motive. Instead of only wanting to die because Aragorn didn't love her and she thought that Aragorn might see her worth if she died in battle.

It got established early in TTT that Eowyn wanted to be a fighter, long before she met Aragorn, this scene was simply a continuation of that plot line.

9. Arwen dying is Sauron isn't destroyed. That was so lame and unnecessary.

I got the feeling that Elrond was refering to two things: that she'd given up her immortality (any one that mortal is functionally dying from the moment they're born), and that she'd decided not to leave so defeating Sauron was very important to her continued survival

10. Frodo going into Shelobs lair alone. In the book it was really sweet how Frodo and Sam went in together. All the tenderness was ripped from that scene, again not envoking the same emotions.

Yep didn't evoke the same emotions, this wasn't a word for word translation you know.

11. Frodo ran around way too long in Shelobs lair. Ok we all know it's really a creepy place and Frodo is scared but the scene does not need to be drawn out too long.

I don't think it was too long at all, modern movies are too short, directors have become afraid to build dramatic tension, this scene was allowed to breath and develop, that's a good thing.

12. How Denethor only cared that Faramir was gravely wounded because his line would end was not as good as it could ahve been. I'm not sure what could have been done differently but something should have.

That's not how I read the scene at all. To me Denethor WANTED Faramir to die when he sent him off, with the king returning the steward had kind of lost his center. When Faramir was dragged back by his horse (a very "heroic" ending for a corpse) Denethor seemed to take that as a sign that he'd died valiently and never bothered to see if he really was dead. Denethor had issues all the way around.

13. How the dead glowed bright florescent green. And how they looked like soldiers of rohan and gondor when they were supposed to be another race.

I thought they were still human, and being wedged between Rohan and Gondor they would have had some cultural similarities. The green glow was a bit goofy though... hey I finally agreed with one of your points.

14. Denethor at the pyre. It was a little to dramatic again not invoking the same feelings, and drawn out too long,

Again with this "same feeling" complaint, you think maybe PJ didn't have the same feelings reading the book you did, that's how books work the reader puts part of themselves into it. And definitely not too long, possibly too short.

15. After Frodo was stung he didn't go down soon enough and it was just nasty.

He got stung by a giant spider, that should be pleasant. He only stayed up like 10 seconds.

16. I also thought Sam and Shelob fought too long. I think it would have been just as affective if a third of it was cut.

You really like short movies huh? Not really into the 4 hour Das Boot I'm betting. The Sam Shelob fight was less than a minute.

17. When gandalf and Pippin were talking about dying. I loved the scene in and of itself, but just moments before Gandalf was the feerless leader and was directing the men to stand there ground. Then he like sitting in despair and saying death is not that bad. I'm not sure it needed to be there, at all or at least not in that part.

There's nothing wrong with having that conversation right after directing men to stand their ground. Actually the emotions dovetail perfectly, first he sends people to their death then he remembers that death isn't such a bad thing. I think the big despair was that at that point it seemed the deaths would be meaningless, the soldiers would die failing to protect the city and stop Sauron.

18. It slightly bugged me when the dead army went into Minas Tirith. Slightly.

Only cause they were green.

19. The battle between the witchking and Eowyn. It wasn't one sided enough. and again didn't envoke the same feelings or odds of winning.

Wasn't one sided enough?! He swung twice, missing once and shattering her shield knocking her on her ass the second time, if it was any more one sided she wouldn't have lived long enough to kill him.

20. The orcs in the tower died too quick.

Oh please, first everything takes too long now orcs are dieing too quickly, let's just roll those up into one complaint: you didn't like the pacing of the entire movie. I on the other hand liked it. There were a lot of "forward jumps" in the battle for Minas Tirith and Sam and Frodo's journey, it was obvious to me that wasn't real time. The orcs started fighting and eventually Sam shows up and the fight is over by then with most of the orcs dying, no reason to show each and every shiv.

21. When Sam finds Frodo in the tower, all the tenderness and love that was shown in the book was trashed and what was left not worthy of Frodo and Sam.

No it wasn't.

22. How It was strongly suggested that if Frodo and Sam were hiding behind the rocks that they would not be scene. totally contradicting what Saruman said in fotr.

Gee you think maybe Saruman got lied to in order to convince him to switch to the winning side, or perhaps was lying to convince others to switch to the winning side? If rock couldn't stop the eye then it would have seen the ring long before Gandalf found out where it was and we wouldn't have a story.

23. How Frodo was so weary he couldnt walk and then suddenyl gets up and starts running. If we just staggered that would have been fine.

It's called getting your second wind, happens to marathon runners, happens to soldiers, happens to people working lunch rush at McHell.

24. Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for way too long, It made me want to laugh, which again didn't envoke the same feelings as the book.

Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for about 6 seconds. He jumped on him, they staggered, we cut elsewhere, we cut back and he was bringing Frodo's hand to his mouth, bite, Frodo is no longer invisible.

25. Gollum in the lava.

He held up the ring on his way down sank in the lava and died, what's the problem.

26. Sauron died too slowly.

Always in a hurry. We don't even no how long it took Sauron to die, too a while for the eye to turn off but so what.

27. The orc armies being swallowed up.

Yeah a little cludgy but we're close to 3 hours in and still have a large pile of wrapup ahead of us.

28. When the eagles were carring Frodo and they were showing him flying over the lava, That was sooo cheesy and lame! I think that was one of the things that bugged me most.

What's wrong with showing him flying over the lava. The volcano blew up, there was lava all over the place, he would be flying over the lava. Also made for a nice cut to Frodo laying in the bed.

29. How Arwen showed up. It could and should have been done more ceremoniously.

Elves aren't into blaring horns. THere was obviously some sort of ceremony involved in her showing up behind the banner and being revealed, sort of like veiling brides. Plenty of ceremony.

30. Gandalf's wagon

Same wagon he had when it all started, nothing wrong with that at all.

31. Bilbo looked like an orc.

He looke really old, that's because he was really old, he was way to pale to look like an orc.

32. The Grey Havens looked animated and fake.

Looked like the rest of the elf lands, surreal and not of this world, I think that's what PJ was gunning for.

33. Frodo didn't dry when he left his friends.

Not everybody cries.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I think perhaps you shouldn't post if you don't really care.

I am allowed my opinion, I am not killing you nor do I wish to. I don't understand you defensiveness. I wanted another opinion not attacked for my own. I am not reveling in my hatred. Only agreeing on points others made. I don't want attention, not from you anyways. I am sorry if you were hurt by my comments, it was not intended.

[HairOfTheDog]

I was pinged here and made a comment to you that I disagreed on the film and loved it.... We had an exchange or two about just one of your complaints... the final climb up the mountain. I described how inspirational it was for me to see Frodo find the strength he didn't know he had, by Grace or sheer will, to run up that mountain. You dug in to try to convince me that it was in fact done horribly wrong. I am not interested in a battle of wills over whether or not it sucked... On each of the other 20 gripes you have.

[Corin Stormhands]

I did nothing that needs forgiveness. Please stop pinging me and I'll leave you with your opinion.

[HairOfTheDog]

Wow....

You know... on that last point, when Frodo was on the ship.... was when Frodo became again the hobbit he was in the beginning. The innocence came back to his face. The pain and the worry and the weight was gone. We have to remember that he was leaving because he was pained. In the book, he was even more ill. Boarding the boat he began to feel the peace that he hoped to find in Valinor.