I hated Rotk (vanity ranting thread) ((spoiler alert))

ME | Today- december 18th, 2003 | Me

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I was soooo dissappointed with the return of the king. It started out ok (except for the first chapter) but after Gollum knoks out Sam in the craks of doom it got really weird, corny and just plain bad.

My list of reasons; 1. Everyone knew and understood Gollum/Smeagol without having or wanting to watch him murder Deagol. It was totally sick and unnecessary.

2. Frodo was somewhat 'normal' at the end of TTT, and in the beggining of ROTK Frodo is like corrupted and half dead. The transition from good to corrupted was divided in to threes instead of being smootly worked out.

3. Theoden being relctuant about comming to Gondor's aid. Then when the beacon is lit, he is like Yea, like you even have to ask me to come.

4. Everything about Denethor. Mostly bad, a little good.

5. The way Denethor treated Faramir. While it was close to the books it didn't have the same emotional feel. Alot of Rotk didn't envok the same feelings as the book did.

6. The Gollum and the lembas scene. Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted.

7. The women and children in Minas Tirith. It made the city look totally unpopulated.

8. When Eowyn gave Merry his armor and then she said 'why cant he fight for those he loves' She looked like it was her underlying motive. Instead of only wanting to die because Aragorn didn't love her and she thought that Aragorn might see her worth if she died in battle.

9. Arwen dying is Sauron isn't destroyed. That was so lame and unnecessary.

10. Frodo going into Shelobs lair alone. In the book it was really sweet how Frodo and Sam went in together. All the tenderness was ripped from that scene, again not envoking the same emotions.

11. Frodo ran around way too long in Shelobs lair. Ok we all know it's really a creepy place and Frodo is scared but the scene does not need to be drawn out too long.

12. How Denethor only cared that Faramir was gravely wounded because his line would end was not as good as it could ahve been. I'm not sure what could have been done differently but something should have.

13. How the dead glowed bright florescent green. And how they looked like soldiers of rohan and gondor when they were supposed to be another race.

14. Denethor at the pyre. It was a little to dramatic again not invoking the same feelings, and drawn out too long,

15. After Frodo was stung he didn't go down soon enough and it was just nasty.

16. I also thought Sam and Shelob fought too long. I think it would have been just as affective if a third of it was cut.

17. When gandalf and Pippin were talking about dying. I loved the scene in and of itself, but just moments before Gandalf was the feerless leader and was directing the men to stand there ground. Then he like sitting in despair and saying death is not that bad. I'm not sure it needed to be there, at all or at least not in that part.

18. It slightly bugged me when the dead army went into Minas Tirith. Slightly.

19. The battle between the witchking and Eowyn. It wasn't one sided enough. and again didn't envoke the same feelings or odds of winning.

20. The orcs in the tower died too quick.

21. When Sam finds Frodo in the tower, all the tenderness and love that was shown in the book was trashed and what was left not worthy of Frodo and Sam.

22. How It was strongly suggested that if Frodo and Sam were hiding behind the rocks that they would not be scene. totally contradicting what Saruman said in fotr.

23. How Frodo was so weary he couldnt walk and then suddenyl gets up and starts running. If we just staggered that would have been fine.

24. Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for way too long, It made me want to laugh, which again didn't envoke the same feelings as the book.

25. Gollum in the lava.

26. Sauron died too slowly.

27. The orc armies being swallowed up.

28. When the eagles were carring Frodo and they were showing him flying over the lava, That was sooo cheesy and lame! I think that was one of the things that bugged me most.

29. How Arwen showed up. It could and should have been done more ceremoniously.

30. Gandalf's wagon

31. Bilbo looked like an orc.

32. The Grey Havens looked animated and fake.

33. Frodo didn't dry when he left his friends.

[discostu]

They did that Tuesday her to wrap up with a midnight showing of ROTK. I didn't make it but I heard they gave an hour break inbetween movies. I did my own little marathon watching all the extras on TT thursday and both extended movies saturday.

[Neets]

I have not read this thread...I'll wait till it comes out on DVD.

[RedBloodedAmerican]

Frodo dies.

[Trampled by Lambs]

We can pick the movies apart endlessly but the fact is, they (all 3) were by far the best movies of their type that I've ever seen and certainly more faithful to the novels than anything up till now.

It's sure nice to not feel like I wasted my money as I leave the theater and that held true for all 3 of them.

Besides, I've been dreaming of seeing a really good film version of LotR ever since I first read them (what, 30 years ago?) that I am willing to forgive much.

Things like Bilbo turning monster-like to illustrate the power the ring still held over him are neccesary in film since there is no text to describe his thoughts. Unsubtle, perhaps but it got the point across.

[Neets]

Hesh yer mouf boy!!

[paul544]

The movie was fabulous. I was a little dissapointed in the battle of Pelanor Fields. It would seem to indicate that the riders of Rohan won the battle on their own. I actually found the battle of Helm's Deep more compelling. It seemed Gondor's army was never truly engaged, and that is not so in the book.
My only other gripe is that the ending was a tad bit drawn out.

None the less, it was a great movie and should and will sweep the Oscars.

[Humbug]

I'm really confused about your Faromir comment. He did resist the temptation of the ring.

It was just that his character seemed much less noble than the one in the book. To be honest my recollection is a bit murky on all this now (in my initial post i had simply dredged up a few qualms i remembered having immediately after seeing the first two movies) and so i'll quote from an article that i read a while back that pretty much echoed my own feelings regarding Faramir at the time. This was written by Orson Scott Card, a noted sci-fi author who generally enjoyed TTT but had one or two gripes, such as the following:

"And especially irritating was the completely pointless exercise of having Faramir take Frodo back to Osgiliath. It completely changed the moral character of Faramir -- it was important to the story that he is not tempted the way his brother Boromir was -- and hurt the fundamental plausibility of the story, since putting the ring that close to a Nazgul, in Osgiliath, would have made Sauron especially alert to the western approach to his kingdom."

As to your other point about building suspense and about the LOTR being rather dark anyway, i see what you're saying but it's just that i would have preferred a different approach, a more of a lighter touch at times in the midst of all the darkness. Not that i think Jackson's approach is necessary wrong, but like with a symphony there can be many different interpretations by many different conductors and there will be people who prefer one take and others who enjoy a completely different take better.

[Waryone]

I agree with many of your points. I loved FOTR, I hated TTT, and I think ROTK is just ok. I should not have listened to all the glowing reviews. I'm not exactly sure what movie the reviewers were watching. There are some fantastic stunts filmed, but the editing in some scenes was downright poor, events in the book that evoked pathos were laughable in the movie, and many in the audience laughed out loud. Peter Jackson may be the king of effects, but he needs help with laying out and editing stories.

The thing that stands out most for me is the lack of nobility of the characters. In FOTR Aragorn, the ranger, exhibited little noble, kingly bearing. I could accept this because they said they wanted the characters to "grow." In TTT, I waited to see Aragorn grow into his future, but all I saw was a Ranger -- still no kingly sword, still no growth. Oh well, wait for Return of the King, surely then I'd see Aragorn, grow into his high position.

Once again I'm disappointed. Even though he finally gets the sword of his ancestors, he still is just a ranger in a high position. At no time does he exhibit the bearing of a king. Bernard Hill, Theoden, is such a great example of nobility. He dies on the battle field a beloved king.

Later, they clean Aragorn up and dress him up in a crown. He glances around nervously as if begging Gandalf to tell him what to do. This is the King of Men? The King never returns! I'm still waiting for The Return of the King. Maybe PJ will make another movie.

This movie was ok. Best picture? No way. Best directed? Not hardly. Make a mint? You betcha!

I could go on, but I'm sure there are those lurking here, Jackson apologists in the worst connotation of the word, wondering why anyone would have the nerve to rain on their love-fest of a parade. I would hate to raise their ire. So I won't continue. Although I don't hate ROTK as much as I hated TTT, I understand how you feel.

[BradyLS]

I've not seen ROTK yet and will withhold an opinion about it until I see it. However, like you two, I enjoyed Fellowship immensely but really disliked the pointless liberties taken in Towers. So much so, that it often spoiled the enoyment of the good things that many craftman labored to produce for the film. Technically, the films are a marvel and the artists deserve every accoldae for their work. But the screen play and editing took a wrong turn after Fellowship and the road is still rough at the end of towers.

There's no shame in not liking everything in Peter Jackson's adaptation. I think, at the end of Towers, it's been vastly overated on the story-adaptation side. No one is calling out Jackson for his substandard screenplay and correspondingly puzzling editing and plot changes.

Still, there is still much that I have enjoyed about the films: the music, the costumes, the choice of players, the effects...

Well, I'm anxious to see the closeing of the trilogy. Saturday is my chosen day. I'll post my own thoughts when I've seen it!

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

This is what I wanted to hear. I'll go see it again, and try to like it as a whole instead of focusing on the bad, although there was alot of it.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

And so?

It dosen't affect my ability to make judgements.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

Yea but, I agree finding strength you didn't know you had is great, but instead of thinking 'wow Frodo is so brave' it was like this is physcially impossible and he must have not been so weary before. See? It wasn't the placement that bothered me most of the time but the way in which it was handled.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I absoultly LOVED Fort and TTT. And I agree that one of the most awful things Jackson did was to let the horror movie come out in so many places. It was let loose in rotk. I didn't mind the Sam being drownd before Frodo saved him, but It was perhaps drawn out too long, which bugged me a lot in rotk. There i've totally contracted myself maybe i can get over it.

So perhaps too much of Jackson's background with horror films keep finding their way into the movies for my taste
Exactly it was like, 'I had to please the audiences with the first two, and now since A. it's seen as a christian movie and B. They will all buy it anyway I can show them my real character.
I did not like the changes with Faramir either, BUT after watching his scenes in the movie and book you are left with the same emotional impact. If you can not feel mad at PJ.
Yea, same with Gollum and Smeagol, It made you want to laugh, not the same emotional impact even though it was close to the books.

[discostu]

He started off less noble in the book but he rose to the proper height. PJ actually talks about the changes to Faromir and basically what it boils down to is that he's one of many characters in LOTR that have no arc, they start at one level and end at that level and it works well in the books because you don't need readers to care about every character. In movies it's different, if you're going to give a character a name and a face they need to change in some way during the course of the story (especially if it's a really long story like LOTR, when the extended DVD of ROTK comes out LOTR will be longer than a season of the Sopranos, longer than the Godfather series, longer than any 5 randomly selected James Bond movies... something to consider).

Card was a good writer at one point, and had he lodged his criticism before writing the utter rubish that is Xenocide (the follow up to the thouroughly mediocre Speaker for the Dead, the follow up to the starkly brilliant Ender's Game) I might be more willing to listen to him, but right now he sits in my shelf as a guy that's lost his touch. I don't think it was important to the story that Faromir not be tempted, what was important was that he not give in to temptation, he and Aragorn are still the only humans that didn't try to take the ring (while Faromir did bring Frodo to Osgiliath he let Frodo carry the ring the whole time) and when push came to shove they both realized that Frodo needed to destroy it. As for the "fundamental plausibility" issue Card raises he's quite simply wrong. The Nazgul got MUCH closer to the ring TWICE in Fellowship and weren't aware of it until Frodo put it on, Frodo didn't put it on in Osgiliath (almost did but Sam stopped him) so they wouldn't have been aware of it. Throughout the story (both the book and the movie) Sauron's actions assume that the holder of the ring will try to use it (this of course being exactly what the ring tries to get people to do so they fall under his spell), even if he knew it was in Osgiliath he wouldn't have been any more alert to the western approach (given that was his planned avenue of attack it's hard to imagine how he could be more alert than he already was); if at any point Sauron assumes the holder would try to destroy it he'd just put a company of Urukai at the Crack of Doom and wait.

Absolutely, everybody has their interpretation and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just telling you my interpretation. I've always focused on the 6 chapters after the ring is destroyed (which would normally be the end of the story) and the characters dealing with cleaning the mess that is inevitable after a confrontation with evil as the final layer in a rather dark story.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I'm a dragon, feel my wrath.

Your not going to even read them? I wasn't just nitpicking! They were all relevant points!

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

See I told you... I'm not alone

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

I'm not sure if they are. I know they shot Faramir and Eowyn's wedding, so I would assume there will be scenes involving them, not that they were messed up and so don't need to be fixed.

Thanks for the post, tho

Did you actually decide to read it?

[discostu]

No kingly bearing?! Let's see Aragorn:
Convinced Gandalf there is still hope Frodo can succeed (more than once)
Convinced Theoden that he must come to the aid of Gondor
Get's the army out of the mountain
Come up with the insane plan to distract Sauron
Give the rousing speech to keep the ranks from breaking when the orcs comes out

Exactly what were you expecting for kingly bearing? Was he supposed to get taller have his voice shift down an octave and begin to glow from his flesh. Starting just prior to the battle of Helm's Deep Aragorn begins to transform to a leader of men, Theoden noticed who it was that led the charge out of the citadel and stopped the orcish advance long enough for Gandalf to save the day, surprised you missed it.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

And you mad at me for giving away spoilers!!

I'm shocked.

[Corin Stormhands]

It dosen't affect my ability to make judgements.

Okay, but I just think you've made a bad judgement. Sorry you don't like the movies. I think they're incredible.