[discostu]

OK, here's my point by point "rebuttal", not really a rebuttal just my opinion which happens to be exactly the opposite of your 99% of the time.

1. Everyone knew and understood Gollum/Smeagol without having or wanting to watch him murder Deagol. It was totally sick and unnecessary.

I think this was to give Serkin a chance to get an actor nomination since the Academy said last year he wasn't eligible because he was never on camera. Also it helps re-establish the sympathetic roots of Smeagol and the corrupting influence of the ring.

2. Frodo was somewhat 'normal' at the end of TTT, and in the beggining of ROTK Frodo is like corrupted and half dead. The transition from good to corrupted was divided in to threes instead of being smootly worked out.

Frodo might have been normal at the very end of TTT but he was in zombie mode the scene before. He started hitting zombie mode early in TTT and it was gradually getting more frequent and more severe though he still had moments of clarity all the way until the end. If you've ever known people that were drug addicts you've seen this cycle and how it's done in the movie makes perfect sense.

3. Theoden being relctuant about comming to Gondor's aid. Then when the beacon is lit, he is like Yea, like you even have to ask me to come.

Theoden was reluctant, the Aragorn talked to him, and inbetween the talk and the beacon being lit he'd changed his mind and agreed with Aragorn, BFD.

4. Everything about Denethor. Mostly bad, a little good.

Denethor isn't a great character in the book either, not as bad but not much more good.

5. The way Denethor treated Faramir. While it was close to the books it didn't have the same emotional feel. Alot of Rotk didn't envok the same feelings as the book did.

Close to the book but not an exact replica of the book, not a very insightful complaint.

6. The Gollum and the lembas scene. Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted.

Sam didn't have to be sent away for the effectiveness of Frodo being corrupted true, Frodo also didn't have to have his finger bitten off in the book for the effectiveness of being corrupted. It's called dramatic license and everybody that makes works of fiction uses it.

7. The women and children in Minas Tirith. It made the city look totally unpopulated.

I don't know where you were looking but Minas Tirith was PACKED with women and children all the way up until the orc assault started, I presume at that point the non-combatants were hiding and praying and staying out of the way which is what non-combatants are supposed to do during combat.

8. When Eowyn gave Merry his armor and then she said 'why cant he fight for those he loves' She looked like it was her underlying motive. Instead of only wanting to die because Aragorn didn't love her and she thought that Aragorn might see her worth if she died in battle.

It got established early in TTT that Eowyn wanted to be a fighter, long before she met Aragorn, this scene was simply a continuation of that plot line.

9. Arwen dying is Sauron isn't destroyed. That was so lame and unnecessary.

I got the feeling that Elrond was refering to two things: that she'd given up her immortality (any one that mortal is functionally dying from the moment they're born), and that she'd decided not to leave so defeating Sauron was very important to her continued survival

10. Frodo going into Shelobs lair alone. In the book it was really sweet how Frodo and Sam went in together. All the tenderness was ripped from that scene, again not envoking the same emotions.

Yep didn't evoke the same emotions, this wasn't a word for word translation you know.

11. Frodo ran around way too long in Shelobs lair. Ok we all know it's really a creepy place and Frodo is scared but the scene does not need to be drawn out too long.

I don't think it was too long at all, modern movies are too short, directors have become afraid to build dramatic tension, this scene was allowed to breath and develop, that's a good thing.

12. How Denethor only cared that Faramir was gravely wounded because his line would end was not as good as it could ahve been. I'm not sure what could have been done differently but something should have.

That's not how I read the scene at all. To me Denethor WANTED Faramir to die when he sent him off, with the king returning the steward had kind of lost his center. When Faramir was dragged back by his horse (a very "heroic" ending for a corpse) Denethor seemed to take that as a sign that he'd died valiently and never bothered to see if he really was dead. Denethor had issues all the way around.

13. How the dead glowed bright florescent green. And how they looked like soldiers of rohan and gondor when they were supposed to be another race.

I thought they were still human, and being wedged between Rohan and Gondor they would have had some cultural similarities. The green glow was a bit goofy though... hey I finally agreed with one of your points.

14. Denethor at the pyre. It was a little to dramatic again not invoking the same feelings, and drawn out too long,

Again with this "same feeling" complaint, you think maybe PJ didn't have the same feelings reading the book you did, that's how books work the reader puts part of themselves into it. And definitely not too long, possibly too short.

15. After Frodo was stung he didn't go down soon enough and it was just nasty.

He got stung by a giant spider, that should be pleasant. He only stayed up like 10 seconds.

16. I also thought Sam and Shelob fought too long. I think it would have been just as affective if a third of it was cut.

You really like short movies huh? Not really into the 4 hour Das Boot I'm betting. The Sam Shelob fight was less than a minute.

17. When gandalf and Pippin were talking about dying. I loved the scene in and of itself, but just moments before Gandalf was the feerless leader and was directing the men to stand there ground. Then he like sitting in despair and saying death is not that bad. I'm not sure it needed to be there, at all or at least not in that part.

There's nothing wrong with having that conversation right after directing men to stand their ground. Actually the emotions dovetail perfectly, first he sends people to their death then he remembers that death isn't such a bad thing. I think the big despair was that at that point it seemed the deaths would be meaningless, the soldiers would die failing to protect the city and stop Sauron.

18. It slightly bugged me when the dead army went into Minas Tirith. Slightly.

Only cause they were green.

19. The battle between the witchking and Eowyn. It wasn't one sided enough. and again didn't envoke the same feelings or odds of winning.

Wasn't one sided enough?! He swung twice, missing once and shattering her shield knocking her on her ass the second time, if it was any more one sided she wouldn't have lived long enough to kill him.

20. The orcs in the tower died too quick.

Oh please, first everything takes too long now orcs are dieing too quickly, let's just roll those up into one complaint: you didn't like the pacing of the entire movie. I on the other hand liked it. There were a lot of "forward jumps" in the battle for Minas Tirith and Sam and Frodo's journey, it was obvious to me that wasn't real time. The orcs started fighting and eventually Sam shows up and the fight is over by then with most of the orcs dying, no reason to show each and every shiv.

21. When Sam finds Frodo in the tower, all the tenderness and love that was shown in the book was trashed and what was left not worthy of Frodo and Sam.

No it wasn't.

22. How It was strongly suggested that if Frodo and Sam were hiding behind the rocks that they would not be scene. totally contradicting what Saruman said in fotr.

Gee you think maybe Saruman got lied to in order to convince him to switch to the winning side, or perhaps was lying to convince others to switch to the winning side? If rock couldn't stop the eye then it would have seen the ring long before Gandalf found out where it was and we wouldn't have a story.

23. How Frodo was so weary he couldnt walk and then suddenyl gets up and starts running. If we just staggered that would have been fine.

It's called getting your second wind, happens to marathon runners, happens to soldiers, happens to people working lunch rush at McHell.

24. Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for way too long, It made me want to laugh, which again didn't envoke the same feelings as the book.

Gollum fought with the invisible Frodo for about 6 seconds. He jumped on him, they staggered, we cut elsewhere, we cut back and he was bringing Frodo's hand to his mouth, bite, Frodo is no longer invisible.

25. Gollum in the lava.

He held up the ring on his way down sank in the lava and died, what's the problem.

26. Sauron died too slowly.

Always in a hurry. We don't even no how long it took Sauron to die, too a while for the eye to turn off but so what.

27. The orc armies being swallowed up.

Yeah a little cludgy but we're close to 3 hours in and still have a large pile of wrapup ahead of us.

28. When the eagles were carring Frodo and they were showing him flying over the lava, That was sooo cheesy and lame! I think that was one of the things that bugged me most.

What's wrong with showing him flying over the lava. The volcano blew up, there was lava all over the place, he would be flying over the lava. Also made for a nice cut to Frodo laying in the bed.

29. How Arwen showed up. It could and should have been done more ceremoniously.

Elves aren't into blaring horns. THere was obviously some sort of ceremony involved in her showing up behind the banner and being revealed, sort of like veiling brides. Plenty of ceremony.

30. Gandalf's wagon

Same wagon he had when it all started, nothing wrong with that at all.

31. Bilbo looked like an orc.

He looke really old, that's because he was really old, he was way to pale to look like an orc.

32. The Grey Havens looked animated and fake.

Looked like the rest of the elf lands, surreal and not of this world, I think that's what PJ was gunning for.

33. Frodo didn't dry when he left his friends.

Not everybody cries.

[HairOfTheDog]

Wow....

You know... on that last point, when Frodo was on the ship.... was when Frodo became again the hobbit he was in the beginning. The innocence came back to his face. The pain and the worry and the weight was gone. We have to remember that he was leaving because he was pained. In the book, he was even more ill. Boarding the boat he began to feel the peace that he hoped to find in Valinor.

[Fire-Breathing_Freeper]

1. i don't think that was a good enough reason to include the scene, and I think it showed. I think that is why they did it, Smeagol telling Frodo without having to see the murder would have been just as affective without having to watch it. Did you really like that scene?

2. Ok I didn't think of that. thanks.

3. true but It was like with the Ents not going to war. Just a little change to see if he can get the 'already read the books audience' to be in supence.

4. your right

5. again

6. Frodo having his finger bitten off didn't have anything to do with him being corrupted.

7. Staying out of the way. Like leaving? Then they could have showed their joyful return and Aragorn as their King. Like leaving and coming back to a new world.

8. Yes, but it was not the same as the book, and I didn't like it. It waist necessary. Eowyn fighting out of despair is better, in my opinion.

9. True, but it didn't have to be dramatized the way it was. Having Arwen killed by orcs or sauron when Rivendell is eventually over run is just a affective.

10. It should have been. Part of my disappointment, and after all the revews it got about how close to the book it stayed.

11. It was like a horror movie.

12. Ok I can see it! But then why did Gandalf say your father loves you Faramir he will remember it before the end? Uh another forgotten line with no conclusion.

13. I agree 100% with you there, again never thought of it

14. But, everyone must feel the same as Me. (entitlement moment) Ok I'm better now.

15. it seemed longer, I closed my eyes

16. really are you sure?

17. Ok I loved that scene and now it makes science with the rest of the movie.

18. Yes and they went through the walls. Beware the Listerine sea

19. watching it I felt like he could have killed her any second he felt like it, and then didn't even notice before she stabbed him in the face.

20. not real time ok I can handle that

21. Are you agreeing?

22. i just didn't like the scene, but it was necessary to show some of their danger

23. It made me think how bizarre it was instead of Wow Frodo is so brave thats all.

24. It was longer than 6 seconds, maybe not as long as I thought

25. He wasn't showing any pain, even thought the precious is being destroyed, and it was really sick. I felt like alot of rotk was turned into a horror movie.

26. It was weird. I thought Pj was trying to see if he could get the book crowd to be surprised

27. something had to be done. I thought it should have been like in the prologue in fotr, just king of falling down and dying, I know he wasn't as strong, but it would have been better.

28. it did but it was weird!! I don't like watching people sleep and it was too long. Wouldn't you have rather seen the eagled flying back to gondor and had a nice aerial shot of the battle and the city? i would have

29. ok fine

30. No he didn't it looked like a prairie schooner

31. he did too. It reminded me of one on a trading card I have. I'll see if I can find it.

32.The buildings were ok, the ship and sunset were not. I don't see why they couldn't have built a real ship and sailed it into a real sunset. I would have paid extra

33. He cried during the rest of the three films. He was almost gleeful to be rid of them.

[sweetliberty]

"18. It slightly bugged me when the dead army went into Minas Tirith. Slightly."

"Only cause they were green."

ROTFL!

Actually, that scene with the army of the dead charging the city on ghost horses gave me chills....no, not because they were dead (or green). I guess it must have something to do with the bond bewtween the men and their horses, even in death as well as the thought that the spirit of those who have gone before can lend their strngth to the living. I don't know. Hadn't really tried to analyze that feeling before.

[Lil'freeper]

7. The women and children in Minas Tirith. It made the city look totally unpopulated.

I don't know where you were looking but Minas Tirith was PACKED with women and children all the way up until the orc assault started, I presume at that point the non-combatants were hiding and praying and staying out of the way which is what non-combatants are supposed to do during combat.

IIRC, Gondor was in a state of decline- many fields went untilled, many homes stood empty. So while, logically, the non-combatants would flee to and crowd the fortress, an overall feeling of 'emptiness' or 'decline' is quite true to the story.