How are churches in America any different than the German churches in 1930 Germany?

vanity | 5/6/2020 | Willgamer

[Willgamer]

Are American churches endorsing tyranny much as the German churches did in 1930 Germany?

[Willgamer]

Romans 13:1 - "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except form God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

A weak, naive, indeed sophomoric, understanding of this verse forbids the American revolution, rendering all Christians as Torys supporting King George. The Declaration of Independence argued otherwise and gained the support of pastors in America to resist tyrannical dictates.

Today, it seems, the vast majority of church leaders choose to interpret Rm. 13 legalistically so as to embrace tyranny.

Are the illegalities of the lockdown dictates so large they cannot be seen or resisted?

While a brief stand down of services may have been tolerated in early March, the vast silence of leaders now is deafening.

We live in a Republic; power flows from the People; the People created the Constitution and Bill of Rights; their civil authorities have flouted these rights.

The Gospel requires a righteous response!

[Rurudyne]

How many 1930s German congregations were openly in a Romans 1:18-32 condition?

[NRx]

Wrong analogy. It was the USSR that was waging war on the church. Germany in 1930 was not yet Nazi. And when they did get into power they more or less ignored the churches as long as they didn’t criticize the Reich. However Stalin loathed religion and virtually exterminated the church and murdered most of the clergy.

[Bonemaker]

“Are American churches endorsing tyranny...”

I know the PCUSA and UMC do.

[bramps]

The Gospel requires a righteous response

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What will your response be?

[righttackle44]

I disagree. A weak, naive, indeed sophomoric understand of this verse, IN CONTEXT, reveals that a Christian does not hold him- or herself haughty, ready to jump on one's horse and power through when angry or upset with one's rulers. Previous to the admonition of this verse, Paul writes one of his strongest arguments for toning down one's pride and anger. Rather, he says in verse 12:1, "Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." I don't see anywhere in that initial statement anything about revolution, revolt, or hatred for one's own sake. If you will look at it, it is a call to calmness--actually (and you're going to hate this--a practical weakness before your fellows.

Then, again, IN CONTEXT, in verses 9-14 of Chapter 12, Paul say this: 9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love; give preference to one another in honor; 11 not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, 13 contributing to the needs of the saints, practicing hospitality.

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16 Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly.

So, pardon me, but I will take Paul's explanation of courage while being respectful and united with one's fellow citizens over a haughty, arrogant attitude. In fact, the entire passage argues for a weak-but-informated-and-godly interpretation of the verse.

But does Romans 13:1 argue for a weak, sophomoric understanding? As you said, the Americanized people and their pastors decided it was time to throw off the yoke of the arrogant and oppressive George III, face down his soldiers, and die if necessary, to free one's fellow citizens.

Yes, both attitudes and actions can, do, and have occurred under the admonition of "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God."

Temperance and intelligence first, always. Pick up the musket when oppression brings about Holy Spirit-led decisions to press for change.

[CondorFlight]

“Germany in 1930 was not yet Nazi. And when they did get into power they more or less ignored the churches as long as they didn’t criticize the Reich.”

Well, not quite. They intended to replace the churches with a national “Aryan” church. They called the bible “the book of lies”, and would have replaced it with nazi philosophy.

Jesus was turned into an Ayran (not a Jew), or else condemned totally. But the war prevented a lot of these measures from being implimented.

[sport]

Interesting........

[Last Dakotan]

Laughs at your poor analogy in the voice of Karol Józef Wojtyła.

[Willgamer]

Hopefully, prayerfully, this will be a Holy Spirit led discussion for change.

Our God is a God of freedom and is a protector of the weak and oppressed.

30 million of our fellow citizens have been illegally deprived of their right to support their families. Our churches are ordered to close. Our civil servants have tyrannically violated the 1st, 2nd and 5th amendments.

Indeed, “abhor what is evil, cling to what is good”.

So I ask, When will God’s people speak out?

[aimhigh]

And when they did get into power they more or less ignored the churches as long as they didn’t criticize the Reich.

Wrong. The Nazis required all churches to place a Nazi flag on their podiums. If a church didn't promote Nazism, they were considered to be opposed to German unity, and banned. It was like churches in China today are expected have to promote Communist theology.

Read, THE NAZI PERSECUTION OF THE CHURCHES, by J.S. Conway.

[Psalm 73]

Very little comparison.

German church looked on as 6 million people died in concentration camps.

American church looked on as 6o million people died in abortion mills.

[caprock]

“Muchly” agreed! While some wish President Trump would deal with his adversaries like President Ronaldus Magnus, the culture has changed for the worse. President Trump shows us how to handle the evil ones (liars=evil) in the present day.

[righttackle44]

Again, I would have to ask: on what basis do you infer that the our citizens have been "illegally deprived of their right to support their families?" How did the civil servants tyrannically violate those amendments? I keep hearing that these things happened. I have seen no proof. All I have seen is appointed leaders carrying out their duties in accordance with the oaths they took when they entered their offices "will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

All I have seen is hysteria, accusations, and a willingness by citizens to disobey the civil authorities elected over them.

I have seen no evil.

I'm speaking out.

[Skooz]

And in most churches the Bible was replaced by a copy of Mein Kampf.

[TBP]

In both cases, many are collaborators, some are not.

[Willgamer]

...on what basis do I infer... Are you kidding me!

There is no legal basis for authorities to abrogate to themselves powers, not granted to them under any legislation, in order to control law abiding citizens.

The Bill of Rights enumerates rights that are inherently possessed by the People (not granted by government).

What civil authorities have done is much like a grammar schoolboy, upon hearing the story of the genie that grants 3 wishes, figuring out the best first wish is for a million more wishes!

There is no virus exception to the Bill of Rights.

If you have seen no evil here, then Godspeed and best wishes for we have nothing further to discuss.

[foreverfree]

Bump

[lightman]

Well, not quite. They intended to replace the churches with a national “Aryan” church. They called the bible “the book of lies”, and would have replaced it with nazi philosophy.

They more than intended...they succeeded.

Among other measures, crosses and crucifixes ("a despicable sign of weakness') were replaced by the "true sign of victory"--the SWASTIKA.

[Jim Noble]

States have extensive police powers.

The government at Washington has none.

You are making a mistake to invoke the Federal constitution against the States. There is no right to propagate contagious diseases, and there never has been.