Posted on 02/02/2020 9:52:53 AM PST by Sean_Anthony
Are Battle Lines Being Drawn?
What started in whispers is now appearing in print…American Thinker, Market Watch, Huffington Post, Washington Times, National Review, Daily Wire, Breitbart, Real Clear Politics, and The New Yorker, among others. They are writing about the possibility of a second civil war in this country, a redo of Democrats’ nullification of federal law, the insistent opposition and rejection of the lawful election of a president, the movement of many of our citizens to a more agreeable state, and acts of violence.
These elements of civil war are now with us once again…nullification, separation, rejection, and violence. We can argue on the order, but the same elements that 159 years ago transported this country from peace and unity into the hell of armed conflict have reappeared, complete with a great social issue of our own…abortion.
No I wont count on it.
Militaries and police forces go with who pays their saleries and retirement.
Re: “What if we had left Fort Sumter alone?”
I think we had an economic alternative, too.
Lincoln could have offered to purchase all the slaves.
Obviously, there would be huge down stream problems still to solve - where do they live - are they voting citizens, etc.
But the cost of the War was many, many, many times more expensive.
Bottom Line - I do not think the Civil War would have happened once the issue of Slavery was removed.
The eventual solution - the total destruction of the Southern states, and the uneducated freed slaves left to live among their former owners - was incomprehensibly stupid.
Um, the state and local governments pay the police. As for the military they will go with secessionists. Especially if it is the south and mid west leaving. Besides this is going to be big so we are talking million of conscripts and volunteers on both sides making the current standing army a non factor.
.……….I read comments 1 through 80 and in my opinion all the suppositions contained in ALL posts 1 through 80 become MOOT and of no further relevance IF Trump wins all 538 Electoral Votes.
Many of you will poo poo this but remember Double RR beat Mondale in 1984 winning 525 Electoral Votes....the most in US History.
I’d say that IF the Trumpster wins 500 votes The Left will effectively be slapped down by The Right and the notion of a Civil War becomes MOOT. Local police will handle rioters.
I seriously doubt states leaving the union will be an issue in this civil war.
It’ll be much more like the Spanish civil.
Except in ours, the fascists and the communists are on the same side and Americans are on the other.
Prove it?
“We, the delegates of the people of Virginia, duly elected in pursuance of a recommendation from the general assembly, and now met in convention, having fully and freely investigated and discussed the proceedings of the Federal Convention, and being prepared as well as the most mature deliberation hath enabled us to decide thereon, Do, in the name and in behalf of the people of Virginia, declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will....”
“We, the delegates of the people of New York... do declare and make known that the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whenever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the department of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several States, or to their respective State governments, to whom they may have granted the same; and that those clauses in the said Constitution, which declare that Congress shall not have or exercise certain powers, do not imply that Congress is entitled to any powers not given by the said Constitution; but such clauses are to be construed either as exceptions in certain specified powers or as inserted merely for greater caution.”
“We, the delegates of the people of Rhode Island and Plantations, duly elected... do declare and make known... that the powers of government may be resumed by the people whenever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the department of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several States, or to their respective State governments, to whom they may have granted the same; that Congress shall guarantee to each State its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Constitution expressly delegated to the United States.”
Look it up for yourself if you think I’m making those quotes up.
“It is high time that the claim to secede at will should be put down by the public opinion; and I shall be glad to see the task commenced by one who understands the subject.”
James Madison’s letter to Nicholas Trist on the nullification crisis Dec 23, 1832
“The laws of the United States must be executed. I have no discretionary power on the subject-my duty is emphatically pronounced in the Constitution. Those who told you that you might peaceably prevent their execution, deceived you-they could not have been deceived themselves. They know that a forcible opposition could alone prevent the execution of the laws, and they know that such opposition must be repelled. Their object is disunion, but be not deceived by names; disunion, by armed force, is TREASON.”
President Andrew Jackson Proclamation to the People of South Carolina Dec 10, 1832.
“In my annual message I expressed the conviction, which I have long deliberately held, and which recent reflection has only tended to deepen and confirm, that no State has a right by its own act to secede from the Union or throw off its federal obligations at pleasure. I also declared my opinion to be that even if that right existed and should be exercised by any State of the Confederacy the executive department of this Government had no authority under the Constitution to recognize its validity by acknowledging the independence of such State. This left me no alternative, as the chief executive officer under the Constitution of the United States, but to collect the public revenues and to protect the public property so far as this might be practicable under existing laws. This is still my purpose. My province is to execute and not to make the laws. It belongs to Congress exclusively to repeal, to modify, or to enlarge their provisions to meet exigencies as they may occur. I possess no dispensing power.
I certainly had no right to make aggressive war upon any State, and I am perfectly satisfied that the Constitution has wisely withheld that power even from Congress. But the right and the duty to use military force defensively against those who resist the Federal officers in the execution of their legal functions and against those who assail the property of the Federal Government is clear and undeniable.
As you can see all of these Presidents unequivocally denied secession unilaterally done by a state or states.
You guys just can’t help yourselves. We can have CWII without getting over CW-I.
7 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel saw a dream and visions [a]in his mind as he lay on his bed; then he wrote the dream down and related the [b]following summary of [c]it. 2 Daniel [d]said, “I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. 3 And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. 4 The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human [e]mind also was given to it. 5 And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’ 6 After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its [f]back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, [g]this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.
9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was [h]ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11 Then I kept looking because of the sound of the [i]boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning [j]fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and [k]a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every [l]language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
15 “As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed [m]within me, and the visions [n]in my mind kept alarming me. 16 I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the [o]exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. 18 But the [p]saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, [q]for all ages to come.’
19 “Then I desired to know the [r]exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all [s]the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, 20 and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and [t]which was larger in appearance than its associates. 21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the [u]saints and overpowering them 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was [v]passed in favor of the [w]saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the [x]saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak [y]out against the Most High and wear down the [z]saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and [aa]they will be given into his hand for a [ab]time, [ac]times, and half a [ad]time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, [ae]annihilated and destroyed [af]forever. 27 Then the [ag]sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the [ah]saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’
28 “[ai]At this point the revelation ended. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts were greatly alarming me and my [aj]face grew pale, but I kept the matter [ak]to myself.”
8 In the third year of the reign of Belshazzar the king a vision appeared to me, [a]Daniel, subsequent to the one which appeared to me [b]previously. 2 I looked in the vision, and while I was looking I was in the citadel of Susa, which is in the province of Elam; and I looked in the vision and I myself was beside the Ulai [c]Canal. 3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the [d]canal. Now the two horns were [e]long, but one was [f]longer than the other, with the [g]longer one coming up last. 4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his [h]power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
5 While I was observing, behold, a male goat was coming from the west over the surface of the whole earth without touching the ground; and the [i]goat had a conspicuous horn between his eyes. 6 He came up to the ram that had the two horns, which I had seen standing in front of the [j]canal, and rushed at him in his mighty wrath. 7 I saw him come beside the ram, and he was enraged at him; and he struck the ram and shattered his two horns, and the ram had no strength to withstand him. So he hurled him to the ground and trampled on him, and there was none to rescue the ram from his [k]power. 8 Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.
9 Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the [l]Beautiful Land. 10 It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. 11 It even magnified itself [m]to be equal with the [n]Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. 12 And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, [o]while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host [p]to be trampled?” 14 He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be [q]properly restored.”
15 When I, Daniel, had seen the vision, I sought [r]to understand it; and behold, standing before me was one [s]who looked like a man. 16 And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, “Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision.” 17 So he came near to where I was standing, and when he came I was frightened and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Son of man, understand that the vision pertains to the time of the end.”
18 Now while he was talking with me, I sank into a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me and made me stand [t]upright. 19 He said, “Behold, I am going to let you know what will occur at the final period of the indignation, for it pertains to the appointed time of the end.
20 The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia.
21 The shaggy [u]goat represents the [v]kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.
23 “In the latter period of their [w]rule,
When the transgressors have [x]run their course,
A king will arise,
[y]Insolent and skilled in [z]intrigue.
24 “His power will be mighty, but not by his own power,
And he will [aa]destroy to an extraordinary degree
And prosper and perform his will;
He will [ab]destroy mighty men and [ac]the holy people.
25 “And through his shrewdness
He will cause deceit to succeed by his [ad]influence;
And he will magnify himself in his heart,
And he will [ae]destroy many while they are [af]at ease.
He will even [ag]oppose the Prince of princes,
But he will be broken without [ah]human agency.
26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings
Which has been told is true;
But keep the vision secret,
For it pertains to many days in the future.”
27 Then I, Daniel, was [ai]exhausted and sick for days. Then I got up again and carried on the king’s business; but I was astounded at the vision, and there was none to [aj]explain it.
Myself, and every person who has served in the United States military, have taken an oath to persevere and protect the constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic.
Unless the government usurps or abuses the rights of the people I will stay true to my oath and stand with my country. A party I disagree with winning a Presidential election(unless there is clear and convincing evidence that there was tampering) does not rise to that level.
What the h-e-double toothpicks was that wall of text...?
+1
So if a group of states secedes you would take up arms against them? You’d kill to force them to stay in this “perpetual” joke of a union?
The next civil war won’t be between states.
It will be like Vietnam, it will be guerilla wars fought across the country.
Civil War 2 started when Trump won. Only one side is fighting, though.
I would volunteer to be called back to active duty from retirement if a state unilaterally seceded because a party they don’t like won a presidential election.
From your statement the difference between you and me is that I don’t believe America is a joke.
What if they seceded for another reason? Maybe they are sick of DC politics and want their independence. So what about that RAMBO thug killer boy?
Per the article
California, in the last 10 years, has seen an exodus of over 1 million people…5 million moved in, 6 million moved out. The inside story is that the middle-class is moving out with the rich and poor moving in…much of the poor coming from illegal immigration attracted to the freebies. The other top states with high moves are: Illinois, New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and Massachusetts, again, all blue states.
I was referring to your claim that Jefferson supported a “right” to secession. As for the signing statements in those three state’s ratification documents - they are interesting feel-good statements but carry no weight of law.
“The eventual solution - the total destruction of the Southern states, and the uneducated freed slaves left to live among their former owners - was incomprehensibly stupid.”
I sure wish there could have been a true compromise that would have avoided both the war and the aftermath. The reconstruction era hurt blacks in many ways people don’t think about. Most think only the slaveholders were punished. No, the South basically was treated like the Scots after Culloden and The Clearances.
You are correct.
This war would not be state vs state. It would be within state, city and metro vs rural.
Which side has food and weapons?
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