Posted on 12/20/2019 7:37:01 AM PST by NobleFree
The United States Supreme Court ruled in Nixon v. United States (1993):
"the three very specific requirements that the Constitution does impose on the Senate when trying impeachments [are]: The Members must be under oath, a two-thirds vote is required to convict, and the Chief Justice presides when the President is tried. These limitations are quite precise, and their nature suggests that the Framers did not intend to impose additional limitations on the form of the Senate proceedings" (emphasis added)
Ergo, if Mad Nan chooses not to 'formally deliver' the articles of impeachment and/or to not send 'managers' to present the House's case, the Senate is well within its Constitutional authority to proceed without them.
May be a roll call vote, but it is not yet an officially recorded act of the House of Representatives. There’s a difference. There are lots of recorded roll call votes reported that have no effect on officially record acts, they may be on amendments to bills working their way through the processes, rule changes, etc. Until the final is recorded along with the actual words of the bill, resolution, etc., and indication it’s signed and transmitted for action in the Senate, it’s not done yet.
For every citation of someone like Feldman there is another from a person of equal or greater stature on Constitutional Law taking the opposite position. They are opinions, they don’t matter. The USSC is all that really matters.
Is the Senate supposed to rely on the media for delivery I think not.
Those are the minutes of the day’s activity on the floor. It’s not the official passage of the Resolution. Look on the very next page where an Signing of a Bill by the Speaker is recorded. That’s what’s missing in the Articles of Impeachment. They’re not yet “recorded”. At this point, they are just an “In House” resolution, not passed beyond the walls of the House, and because they are completely partisan, they could be merely called an “open partisan caucus” vote, were it not for the “Nay” votes by the Republicans recorded.
The Senate cannot try an impeachment based on "hearsay" reporting in the news that the House has passed articles of impeachment.
Unless and until the House formally transmits the matter to the Senate for consideration, the Senate has noting upon which to act.
Congressional Record of the vote:
https://www.congress.gov/116/crec/2019/12/18/CREC-2019-12-18-pt1-PgH12206.pdf
The last action taken was:
So Article II was agreed to. The result of the vote was announced as above recorded. A motion to reconsider Article I was laid on the table. A motion to reconsider Article II was laid on the table.
With the motion to reconsider on the table, the two articles are in limbo.
agree with your last sentence. too many in the country do not know and many don’t care to know the system and just assume things can be done in ways that makes sense to them in the moment.
Not so:
"The motion to reconsider is sometimes used in a strictly pro forma manner. When so used, the motion is followed by a motion or unanimousconsent request to table the motion to reconsider. Deschler Ch 23 § 33. The effect of this procedural device is to preclude subsequent motions to reconsider (Deschler Ch 23 § 34.5), and is the accepted parliamentary mode of making the vote in question final (Deschler Ch 23 § 34)." - https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/HMAN-104/pdf/HMAN-104-pg610.pdf
Arguing has become a mere pastime. I’ve never had a problem getting answers to questions like these from Sen. Grassley’s and Rep. Steve King’s offices.
The biggest tale-spinners seem the least likely to get real practical answers.
a vote is same as saying we believe there is enough evidence to prosecute, but not passing the evidence and all pertinent notes along to next step for both sides to prep for trial. Nancy is not wanting to pass along the info needed for next step. Sure people can think it’s ok to use C-span info or bits of info but it’s not the system working as supposed to for this matter.
Pelosi has no authority or power to dictate how the Senate conducts a trial. Here is what the US Constitution has to say:
Article I, Section 2, Clause 5 provides:
“The House of Representatives ... shall have the sole Power of Impeachment.”
Article I, Section 3, Clauses 6 and 7 provide:
“The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments.“
”When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice [John Roberts] shall preside: And no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of two-thirds of the Members present.”
I wonder how Roberts and McConnell would interact? Roberts could be key to the final outcome.
Nope. Unh-unh.
The senate has specific rules of their own to follow. Since the House has FAILED in their impeachement efforts, there is nothing the Senate can do.
I. Whensoever the Senate shall receive notice from the House of Representatives that managers are appointed on their part to conduct an impeachment against any person and are directed to carry articles of impeachment to the Senate, the Secretary of the Senate shall immediately in- form the House of Representatives that the Senate is ready to receive the managers for the purpose of exhibiting such articles of impeachment, agreeably to such notice.
II. When the managers of an impeachment shall be intro- duced at the bar of the Senate and shall signify that they are ready to exhibit articles of impeachment against any person, the Presiding Officer of the Senate shall direct the Sergeant at Arms to make proclamation, who shall, after making proclamation, repeat the following words, viz: ``All persons are commanded to keep silence, on pain of imprisonment, while the House of Representatives is exhibiting to the Senate of the United States articles of impeachment against ------ ------''; after which the articles shall be exhibited, and then the Presiding Officer of the Senate shall inform the managers that the Senate will take proper order on the subject of the impeachment, of which due notice shall be given to the House of Representatives.
III. Upon such articles being presented to the Senate, the Senate shall, at 1 o'clock afternoon of the day (Sunday excepted) following such presentation, or sooner if ordered by the Senate, proceed to the consideration of such articles and shall continue in session from day to day (Sundays excepted) after the trial shall commence (unless otherwise ordered by the Senate) until final judgment shall be rendered, and so much longer as may, in its judgment, be needful. Before proceeding to the consideration of the articles of impeachment, the Presiding Officer shall administer the oath hereinafter provided to the members of the Senate then present and to the other members of the Senate as they shall appear, whose duty it shall be to take the same.
more...
Oh gee, well if Noah Feldman says that’s how it works, I guess we have to bow to his will rather than Constitution and the Supreme Court.
That page doesn't address "recording" but "reporting" and "signing". The existing entries in the Congressional Record show the text of the articles, their passage, and the finalization of the vote. That's enough for Mitch to run with - and if Mad Nan doesn't like it, let her take it to court. I don't think in this day and age "but I didn't sign it" will get far with a Court whose precedent on impeachment is deference to the legislature.
Which they can change at their own discretion.
I respectfully disagree :) - this is arcane stuff, and I first thought exactly as you did, before doing some more digging.
I wanted to see for myself, the “articles of impeachment” against President Trump.
An Internet search for the actual “articles” always ends up in the same place. As released by the House Judiciary Committee.
They are UNSIGNED, and undated. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??????
Is Trump “actually” impeached?
I guess that the “LIVE” reading and vote on CSPAN would count as “delivery” to the Senate as well as TO THE WHOLE WORLD!
Just DISMISS the the UNCONSTITUTIONAL charges already!
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