The CMMG Banshee – New Light SBR

Have a look at this 4.6 pounds and 20 inches long CMMG Banshee, its definitely a new breed of SBR AR.

CMMG has announced the addition of a new series of short barreled rifles (SBR's) and AR Pistols that will be known as the BANSHEE line. The BANSHEE's sleek new design sports the shortest barrels CMMG offers in 9mm, .45 ACP, 300 BLK and .22 Long Rifle.
This ultra-compact and lightweight platform is extremely portable, making the BANSHEE a phenomenal package for close protection, home defense, plinking, even competition shooting. A very agile AR platform.

Each version of the BANSHEE sports CMMG's new ambidextrous charging handle, as well as an ambidextrous sling plate and ambidextrous safety selector.
The BANSHEE comes standard with CMMG's Premier Cerakote finish, an RML M-LOK Hand Guard and a Magpul MOE Pistol Grip. The AR Pistol versions each come with a Tailhook Mod 2 Brace.

SBR Versions
The SBR versions (all NFA rules apply) come equipped with a Magpul MVG Foregrip and will feature CMMG's new RipStock. The RipStock is a new compact butt stock that is fully machined out of 6061-T6 AL and Cerakoted by CMMG. The RipStock features two of CMMG's patent pending technologies: FASTBACK and P3. See the rest of the CMMG Banshee video here.

“...would someone shut that man up!?..” (continental congress to John Adams...”1776!”)

Seriously, THIS IS A PISTOL WITH A BRACE!!! The footing the pistol brace is standing on (with the ATF) is slippery at best! With the speed and alacrity they have reversed a logical decision regarding bump stocks (ridiculous as they may be for anyone who $hoot$ on a budget), and the original flap over pistol braces and their “shoulderability” could easily be turned to smoke.

STOP CALLING A BRACED PISTOL AN SBR!!!!

This is kind of like the bird in the cold, neck deep in the warm cow pie chirping happily right before the hawk swoops in and ends it.

It is a cool gun though!

Just my .02...YMMV

KYPD

While you are correct as some of the phots depict a pistol version, a braced pistol and an SBR are both offered.

Technically, the ATF basically now looks at pistols ( less than 16” bbl/ less than 26 “ OAL as still pistols with approved braces, a dedicated stock made to be primarily fired for the shoulder creates an SBR.

One is a pistol that can be fired “incidentally” from the shoulder, while the other is “primarily” designed to be shoulder fired.....

I would choose the braced pistol version which I shoot “incidentally fro the shoulder” rather than pay and register the SBR, unless I went full out and added a suppressor as well.....

In reality, I find the 16 “ AR 556/223 carbine a better over all performer- pistol calibers in large platforms are not efficient in terms of mass vs capability, while carbines seem to combine the power of the mid-range cartridges and rifle like accuracy out to common combat ranges, from 0-200+ m.

Regarding the issue of bump-fire stocks, that is not yet a done deal- and I see challenges ahead for the ATFE if the proposed rule is indeed adopted. Seems there is a point of law that congress declares what a machine gun is and a bump stock is not it. We shall see. Of course, if all the bump-fire stock makers throw in the towel, that becomes moot, except for the fact that two fingers in a trigger guard can be used to accomplish the same outcome, and they cannot be regulated or registered.

“...I thought sawed off rifles were illegal.”

Not under federal law (states and local jurisdictions may have tighter restrictions).

They are highly regulated and heavily taxed: goes back to the National Firearms Act of 1934.

According to a summary of federal legislative proceedings of the time, many Senators and Representatives did want to ban machine guns, suppressors (”silencers”) and some other firearms outright. Legal advisors told the legislators that courts would invalidate such laws; someone suggested taxing possession at a rate so high that few citizens would want to bother with the expenditure and bureaucratic hassle.

The idea was tossed about; how high a tax would do the trick? Someone suggested 100 percent of the purchase price. The number met with approval. It turned out no one present knew what the market price of a machine gun was, so an aide was sent out to inquire. That individual returned with the information that a Thompson gun then went for $200.00.

The amount was written into law as the cost of a tax stamp required to transfer a machine gun, and most of the rest of the regulated guns.

Other arms falling under the regulatory purview of that law are “short-barreled” rifle and shotguns, and smoothbore handguns. It was thought that these were weapons criminals were most likely to use; someone reasoned that a long gun with a cut down barrel would be easier to conceal. Never learned what the excuse was, concerning smoothbore handguns.

The legal definition for “short” barrels is 16 inches for a rifle, and 18 inches for a shotgun. Minimum overall length for any long gun is also specified, but I forget the exact figure.

The details of the legislative proceedings were published in Machine Gun News (Small Arms Review after its name changed): print edition, some 20 years ago. I forget the exact bibliographic citation.

Alterations have been made in the years since, to the basic law and to agency rules based on it.

In 1986, Congress passed legislation banning the sale of any machine gun made after a specific date. This has caused prices of full-auto guns to climb: the $200.00 tax stamp has become less important. Not that anyone commits crimes with these collector items.

Newly made suppressors and short-barreled rifles/shotguns may still be sold, after being properly documented and registered with the agency, and payment of tax.

If forum members will forgive my long-windedness, there are some other legal/regulatory wrinkles. My sole intent is to keep prospective buyers out of trouble.

“Machine gun” does have a definition under federal law and regulations, but it differs from military and manufacturer parlance.

Legally, it’s any firearm that fires more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger. Includes full-auto guns made that way intentionally, like the US M2 50 cal machine gun, the Thompson submachine gun, the M16 and M14 rifles as made for the armed forces. It also includes burst-fire guns like the HK G11 and the US issue M16A2 (which had a three-shot burst selector setting). If your semi-auto “doubles,” and enforcers determined you have tinkered with it, you are in violation. Guilty until proven innocent.

So far, so good. But things get confusing when some other guns are examined.

Original Gatling guns and modern-made arms based on them are not regulated, so long as the gun is operated manually. If power is applied, they are regulated. Thus, the M61 20mm gun that equips many aircraft, and the M134 “minigun” (official nomenclature GAU-2 in some configurations) in 7.62 NATO both use electrical power and are regulated.

Colt’s made all original Gatlings back in the day. Recently, they announced they will sell original-pattern Gatling guns on special order (prepaid, $50,000.00). Chambered in 45-70; citizen ownership is okay with the agency, just be sure not to hook yours up to an electric motor.

The chief legal point about owning full-auto guns is that the agency stands by its rule of “once a machine gun, always a machine gun.” If the original manufacturer made the piece to fire full-auto, and it’s not already on the agency’s list of legally registered items, you will never be able to own it legally. Doesn’t matter if it’s an original M1895 Colt’s “Potatoe Digger”, or the German MP40 submachine gun that Grandpa brought home as a war trophy in 1945. And it doesn’t matter if the gun has been inactivated to prevent any firing; get caught with one and they will convict you of a federal felony. Penalties rise to tens of thousands of dollars and up to ten years in a federal prison.

Any rifled gun with a bore diameter greater than 0.500 inch is legally defined as a “destructive device” and must be registered with the agency. There are some sporting rifles out there in calibers (577 Nitro Express, 600 Nitro Express, 700 Nitro Express etc) with larger bores; just what their regulatory status is, I do not know. Most are custom British guns with prices rather higher than the average US citizen would be willing to pay, so I imagine the $200.00 tax stamp would not deter a serious buyer.

The agency maintains a category it has named the “Curio & Relic” list: guns above a certain age (currently 50 years if memory serves), guns of special historical interest, and other items deemed worthy - essentially, anything the agency feels like putting there. Listed items get relief from some regulations.

The best-known examples of otherwise-regulated guns are the “Trapper” models: some Marlin M1894s, Winchester M1892s and M1894s were factory-made with barrels shorter than 16 inches. These had to be registered when the National Firearms Act became law, but the agency has since downgraded their status and placed them on the Curio & Relic list - to lighten the regulatory burden on the public.

Prospective buyers should proceed carefully: exemptions apply only to rifles originally leaving the factory with short barrels. Don’t make your own - from either an original, or a recent rifle - without obtaining permission from the agency, in advance. Both manufacturers have re-introduced modernized versions of these popular models, but all have barrels 16 inches or longer.

Whatever the case, seek competent legal advice before making or selling any firearm not commonly available from a licensed dealer. Don’t take my word - I retired from the trade a couple seasons ago, and details change. Small Arms Review used to carry classified ads marketing the services of gun-friendly attorneys with specialized knowledge in guns regulated by the National Firearms Act and other laws.

“...the ATF basically now looks at pistols ( less than 16” bbl/ less than 26 “ OAL as still pistols with approved braces, ... I find the 16 “ AR 556/223 carbine a better over all performer- pistol calibers in large platforms are not efficient ...” [Manly Warrior, post 8]

Many thanks to Manly Warrior for supplying the correct min overall length figure, for long guns. Ever more rust in my synapses, one guesses.

“Handguns” fashioned from rifles aren’t terribly efficient either, especially not in 223, where the bullet is tiny and velocity is vitally important. Guns based on the AR-15 with barrels as short as 8 inches tend to be overly violent in function.

And there’s the problem of hearing damage ... 223 (well, 5.56x45) fired out of the original-length 20-inch barrel is noisy enough; progressively shorter barrels are proportionately worse.

The military’s obsession for ever-shorter barrels has more to do with a footsoldier’s ability to mount and dismount from vehicles, M4 in hand, than any other criterion. Or so the guessing runs. Less of a necessity for a citizen user.

Short bbl’d ARs ( 11.5-less than 16”) still out perform pistol rounds in carbines.

Granted, flash and blast from one using rifle rounds makes for a less than optimum arrangement. However, one can load mid weight bullets n 1/9 twist bbls for well over 2500fps from an 11 inch or so SBR. Proper gas port is key- most AR pistols have rifle sized or maybe carbine sized ports ( .093 for rifle, .0625 for carbine is per design spec) which results in mangled brass, poor extraction and violent ejection not to mention increased recoil overall.

A carbine wth a proper port size is sweet and smooth, low recoiling and enjoyable.

Regarding AR pistols/SBRs, one could also go in the opposite direction- 80 or 90 grain bullets and 1/6.5 twists and loaded for bear, but then a suppressor really helps with blast and velocity. Hard to get to work in mag length loadings, but they have extraordinary penetration and overall terminal ballistics. 21-2200 fps from a 12 inch bbl.

I’ll stick to my .4x caliber handguns and 223/556 carbines for defensive purposes.

As to the carbine trend in the military- I disagree in the premise- sacrificing downrange performance to for supposedly easier egress/portability is silly and wrong minded. Indeed, as a former Light and Bradley Infantryman, then all sorts of mounted duties as an engineer officer, I never wished for less gun and easier stowage or increased speed of dismount, but I often wished for more gun.

In my world, I would issue one rifle- a collapsible stocked 6 or 6.5 mm mid sized rifle based on the 6.8 sPc- the 6mm Hagar or the 240 Tomahawk are keen with 95- 105 grain 6mm slippery fast bullets at 26-2700 fps from a 20 inch bbl, so a 25 round mag is a decent trade off. I dislike the Grendel based rounds for diameter to strength issues int eh AR15 platform and poor overall performance at range- It seems to be in between the 6.8 cartridge and the 260/308 rounds but is either too big for the AR15 or too small for the AR10 platforms....

But, hey, I am retied an have no voice of note.

“...As to the carbine trend in the military- I disagree in the premise- sacrificing downrange performance to for supposedly easier egress/portability is silly and wrong minded. ...

“...In my world, I would issue one rifle- a collapsible stocked 6 or 6.5 mm mid sized rifle...”[Manly Warrior, post 14]

The only response that comes to mind is a generalized one: it’s an inescapable fact that each and every weapons system is subjected to so many constraints during development that it becomes a collection of compromises. Which mean it’s less than perfect, meaning that it will come up short at some point. In military endeavor, that means loss of life and mission failure; possibly defeat.

There is no “ideal” rifle and cartridge that can be all things to all users. Circumstances and conditions simply vary too widely.

The higher-ups didn’t take my advice even when I was on active duty. Not even when they were paying me to crunch numbers for them, or perform operational tests, and formulate advice based on that stuff. Used to getting their own way, one supposes; didn’t sit well when I told them they weren’t allowed to violate the laws of physics.

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