Posted on 06/26/2011 5:16:49 PM PDT by Kevmo
What do you think about Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) technology? Game Changer, Stinks of Fraud or just your run of the mill Mad Scientist.
Biggest hurdle to me is his credibility, Rossi was convicted and jailed from a previous energy endeavor.
Appears to be real... http://defkalion-energy.com/
Odd that US rights are licensed to DOE connected Ampenergo.
my guess is too many income streams are impacted and the rollout here will be slow.
Appears the media labeled the e-cat to be some type of cold fusion or LENR. Rossi and company are claiming it to be a type of exothermic chemical reaction.
2011 - Andrea Rossi Explains His Energy Catalyzer
Welcome to my laboratory. This is where we make the tests of our reactors and of the modules that we will go to compound the one megawatt plant that we are manufacturing, and will be started in October in Greece.
Let's start from the very beginning. We have here the plug that is taking power from the grid. You can say that we are consuming or drawing 3.4 amperes. 3.4 amperes with voltage of 220 volts which is the normal voltage in Italy. So, we are taking 3.4 times 220 is 748 watt hours per hour. This is the energy that we are taking out. Later we will see how much energy we are producing with the E-Cat.
Now you will see the E-Cats. These are the E-Cats. At the moment we are making a test with one E-Cat which is this one. This is the thermal couple that measures the temperature in the chimney of the reactor. The reactor is this, in this area. This is the insulation the black one, and this is the chimney. And from the chimney exits the steam and through this black hose that goes to the sink. Here is the sink and the steam goes through there. And we also have another thermal couple which is this one. This thermal couple measures the temperature of the water that goes inside the reactor. This is a pump that pumps from this reservoir to the reactor. So you can see this pipe pumping water from the reservoir, and sends the water through this blue hose to the inlet of the E-Cat which is this. Here we have a double wall jacket between the two walls we have a flow of water. The water cools down the reactor and turns to steam. The energy will be calculated considering the amount of water that we consume every hour, that we consume by weighing, by measuring the weight by the water we consume. And the delta T,: the difference of temperature between the two thermal couples.
In this of the data of the two thermal couples, as you can see from these wires flow through this data collector, and this data collector sends that to the computer. In fact, if we go to see the monitor of this computer, we will see that we have in the first column, C1, is the room temperature. Today it is a very hot day. We have 31.8 degrees Celsius in the room. In this side here, we have in C2 the temperature of the water at the inlet of the reactor, which is the water in the reservoir. Which is at this moment 26.5 Celsius degrees, which at the output we are measuring 100.1 degrees Celsius degrees because it is steam.
We have room pressure, as everyone knows at 100 C degrees that water boils and becomes steam. These are where you can see this. The blue bottom line is the water inlet. The red line is the room temperature and the yellow line is the temperature of the steam. Now this is the control panel. Here happen all the regulations of the system. All of what happens inside the rector is regulated through this. Also temperature, suppression, etc etc. And here... oh sure.. .inside the cover I can open the cover just to let you see there is no exotic.. you can just see that here inside we do not have any batteries or any stupidity like that. This is just electronic stuff.
And here you see another very important thing which is the measurement of the gamma rays. This is the measurement of the gamma rays. Now we are measuring .15 microseiversts per hour in the enviroment outside of the reactor. This is a standard gauge to measure the gamma radiation. This is a "gamma scout." In this moment, it is giving us data .13 micros eiverts per hour, which means we are pretty safe, because of course the reactor is shielded and the gamma rays are thermalized. The low energy gamma rays which we produced are thermalized inside of the reactor, and it is for this reason that we have energy production.
Now to have a very rapid calculation of the energies... At this point I have also to show you the hydrogen system. This is the hydrogen tank. The hydrogen before we start the production this cap is screwed to this point. Now we have a security cap we take off this cap we screw this one and through this hose we discharge the hydrogen inside the reactor. I can say with one gram of hydrogen we have twenty four hours of work. So basically you can think we put this here security and screw this right here after taking off this green cap we put this place this silver cap and open here and here, and we will have the pressure and we have the hydrogen inside there reactor and the pressure that will work. Then we close everything. The hydrogen is charged, and for 24 hours it is set.
Now I can explain better the system of water distribution. As you see water arrives from here, is pumped by the para-static pump through these veins that go inside the double jacket. Here inside we have a double jacket. Between the two jackets there is the cooling water, which is the water that we steam up to collect the energy. The water comes here this is the chimney. At this point the water is operated, because here we are at 99.9 degrees Celsius which is the upper limit of liquid state of water. Here we have pressure, room pressure, this is important to specify because the boiling point is a function of the pressure. This is the thermal couple that measures the temperature of the water in the chimney. Then the steam flows through this pipe. This pipe is of course is about 100 C degrees Celsius so you cannot take your hand above, and this goes to the sink where the steam is going, that is right there. Some steam is going out because... Much of what goes out. Yes, we have some condensation. But there is small condensation because this (hose) is very short and the maximum part is steam that goes out.
Just a moment. Put it. Got it. Steam. This is steam. And of course it is not that visible because it is very hot. Being very hot, it has less density. And so it is not very visible. But you can see the steam. On white you cannot see it well. With black you can see. But it is not very visible because it is very hot. Steam you can see well at low temperatures like fog, but when it is hot it is very dispersant.
At this moment we are making seven kilograms of water. Seven kilograms that we know perfectly because we weight the water that we put inside. Every time that we recharge, we weight the water and so we know exactly what is the weight of the water that we are passing through the reactor in one hour. The temperature is 101 degrees. This is a special rubber for high temperature. This is a rubber that resists up to 180 degrees Celsius.
Now we can make the calculations.....
curvefitter
Total Posts: 56 Joined: Oct 2007
Posted: 2011-06-26 06:35 What is this doing here?
Please move. also: Was not convicted nor jailed as far as i know, but just charged
IQuant1
Total Posts: 2 Joined: Jun 2011
Posted: 2011-06-26 14:31 Impacts the Energy Sector if its the real deal.
curvefitter
Total Posts: 56 Joined: Oct 2007
Posted: 2011-06-26 16:22 Well in that case you need to do better research..
The conviction story is bogus -- they are not calling it chemical but they are trying to minimize the LENR angle to avoid being compared to Fleischmann-Pons. There are videos of a demonstation done at the university of bologna a few month ago on youtube, look for them. They said the next step would be a bigger reactor in october.
Tradenator
Total Posts: 950 Joined: Sep 2006
Posted: 2011-06-27 01:21 See Peebles' "Quantum Mechanics" book, chapter 1, section 9 for a description of tunneling with deuterons (cold fusion). In particular, read the last paragraph's discussion on compressing the electron wave function and the realism of the corresponding energies involved.
I've read all of Krivit's writings on the E-Cat, and it is obvious he went there with an agenda, and NOT as a neutral observer. He insulted pretty much everybody in sight with his "early comments".
The only thing Krivit ever focussed on was the "wet steam" theory, in a pre-conceived notion that less energy was produced and the calorimetry was "bad" because the steam wasn't "dry".
Unfortunately for Krivit's credibility on that point, he has completely ignored (and as far as I can tell, STILL ignores) the "no steam" experiment, which went on for eighteen hours, with a delta T across the reactor of about 5 degrees Celsius, and no steam produced AT ALL. So there was no possibility for a "wet steam error.
Sorry, but I'm NOT impressed by Krivit.
Impacting someelses income stream is not my concern
***Then why post on this thread? At this point there is no income stream to impact.
If they deliberately slow the importation of the device, that’s just blatant corruption
***Who is “they”?
If it works... it would save every household thousands per year
***Then does that mean, at that time, impacting someone else’s income stream would not be your concern?
Just don’t put all your eggs into e-cat s’all I’m sayin.
***Let’s say you thought California in 1849 was a good place to start selling shovels, but as the Lord would have it, there was no gold rush. It would still have been a good business, wouldn’t it? Just not a skyrocketing one.
That, of course, will simultaneously trash all the theories underlying the current understanding of high energy physics.
***Not necessarily. Here’s an analogy. The branchings of high energy fusion may not correlate to the branchings of low energy fusion. Let’s take a car crash as an example. At 150 miles per hour, there’s a bunch of crunched metal and shattered plastic. There’s no reason to look at the plastic as anything that would survive a crash. But at 10 miles per hour, there are plenty of plastic pieces lying around, showing just as much survivability as metal. The kinetic energy branchings are different at low energies.
Here’s a good place to start for theory, plus the Widom-Larson roundabout theory...
A model for enhanced fusion reaction in a solid matrix of metal deuterides
Wednesday, June 08, 2011 10:14:09 PM · by Kevmo · 35 replies
International Conference on Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. 2008 ^ | July 2008 | K P Sinha
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2732072/posts
Sorry, but I’m NOT impressed by Krivit.
***Be careful what you say about a fellow freeper.
I have this funny feeling that Rossi was working on something else and got this rather strange result. He thihkls he has something but is still trying to figure out how it really works.
Let's say you have a river in front of you flowing 10 MPH downstream. Earlier examinations of that river reveal it has long stretches of perfectly clear water but occasionally someone dumps a truckload of sewage in. Your job is not to find all the sewage, but to take random samples of the river to find out how much fresh water is left!
So, you come up with a schema for sampling, and you initially estimate that the truckload of sewage comes once a day at most, and sometimes as infrequently as once a week.
So, over the course of a day you have 240 miles of water to measure, and over a week you need to measure 7 times that many miles. That gives you some limits. A lower limit and an upper limit.
Now I'm not that much into the details of such sampling efforts these days but I know that there are HUNDREDS of solutions to the problem which result in NEVER measuring sewage. It will just flow on by and you will probably never find it, but you weren't worried anyway. You were, after all, measuring the fresh water!
Sigma 3 and other Quality Control approaches can solve the problem inferentially. First, you stack the deck. You know there are sewage trucks on the road and you can identify them by their licensing. The ones formerly licensed that are not now paying their tonnage fees at the land fill mulching bins are probably the ones doing the dumping.
So, you begin checking each licensed company for unpaid license fees for specific trucks.
That should narrow your search down considerably.
The analogy to physics would be to not just measure the direct energy output and look for alpha or beta particles, but to count the pulses in the system. If there are NONE, that's got different implications than if it has REGULAR pulses, and the frequency thereto should probably give somebody some thoughts.
At the same time you'd want a detector around checking to see if there are any stray beta particles in the room. Remember the river ~ somebody knows by some means that sometimes sewage shows up so he measured something. He may not have set the parameters of his test carefully enough, so if you just go in looking for "energy output" and "particles" (analogous to clean fresh water or sewage in the flowing river example), you could miss everything.
Actually the percolator analogy works pretty well to tell you there may be PEAKS in the function ~ but with the river analogy, we don't care. We want to see what LOADS those sewage peaks into the water, and to do that we check on the credentials.
So, what are the credentials here? Well, somebody manufactured the tubing, pipes and other containers. Someone slagged out some lead for gamma ray shielding, and someone else rolled some aluminum for alpha particles.
What is the gage of the pipe? What is the thickness of aluminum. What is the density of the plastic. When I go to the manufacturers are they going to tell me that the stuff used in the device meets their standard? If not, why not?
You do a quality control audit on someone ~ whether a record keeping, manufacturer, retailer or whatever, when you find SEVERAL errors you write up your report and call management for an exit interview.
Sometimes you get as close to the exit as you can.
In all these discussions NO ONE has stated any of the specifics about the equipment ~ its gage, who made it, density, etc.
To me that's very serious ~ all the high energy physicists keep looking for gamma rays and finding none they deem the process to be beneath them. (I'd love to do a quality audit on their labs eh).
LENR enthusiasts note the energy output ~
This really is like someone sampling a river to find just the fresh water by ignoring the load of sewage.
We don't need to know the SECRET just tell us about the pipes and show me the receipts!
A google search for
Peebles “Quantum Mechanics” deuteride
brings me to this interesting paper that I’m not allowed to see.
Approach to Nuclear Energy without Strong Nuclear Radiation
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bk-2008-0998.ch003
AbstractHi-Res PDF[1846 KB]PDF w/ Links[1847 KB]Your current credentials do not allow retrieval of the full text.
Purchase the full-text
PDF/HTML,
figures/images,
references and tables,
(where available) X. Z. Li, , Q. M. Wei, and , B. Liu
Department of Physics, Tsinghua University, Beijing 100084, China
Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions Sourcebook
Chapter 3, pp 39–56
Chapter DOI: 10.1021/bk-2008-0998.ch003
ACS Symposium Series, Vol. 998
ISBN13: 9780841269668eISBN: 9780841221413
Publication Date (Print): August 01, 2008
Copyright © 2008 American Chemical Society
AbstractCollaboration between chemists and physicists has been essential in the history of scientific discovery. In order to make the discovery more convincing to mainstream science, we have to have the theoretical prediction verified by the various independent experimental results. The splendid goal of nuclear energy without strong nuclear radiation has been the motivation of this untiring worldwide effort. The next steps are a self-sustaining reactor and the detection of the neutrino emission from the metal-hydrides (deuterides).
***Now that is an interesting thing to say, the next step The next
steps ... the detection of the
neutrino emission from the metal-hydrides (deuterides). That’s exactly what Pamela Mossier-Boss detected. And Rossi claims he’s building self-sustaining reactors.
“I guess basically the way I’d put it is that he’s using his own money”
That is not so clear. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2738942/posts
Krivit’s most recent (5/11/2011) posting about Rossi’s work appears favorable to me. See http://www.newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2011/37/LewanInvestigates.shtml
For those who like dubious claims as much as I do, take a look at http://pesn.com/2011/06/26/9501858_Potential_of_Plasmic_Power_in_PlasmERG/ for news about an engine that needs nearly no fuel.
Also, check out this section of Appendix 4 of a Proposed Nuclear Physics Experiment to Conclusively Demonstrate & Explain Aneutronic Cold Fusion by Robert Bass.
http://www.innoventek.com/BassICCF4.pdf
BI-RESONANT TRANSPARENCY OF QUADRUPLE COULOMB BARRIERS IN PERIODIC TRIPLE POTENTIAL WELLS.
Using the phase-integral method of Jeffries (1923), commonly called the WKB method for (qualitatively correct but only quantitatively approximate) solution of the wave equation, expressions are derived which would be, if exact, necessary and sufficient condition for energy levels of a particle moving toward a triple potential well to encounter Resonant Transparency of all four Coulomb Barriers, i.e. to penetrate all four barriers with 100% probability. As a special case, a 6.3eV deuteron trapped in a deuteron lattice (inside a Pd-D 1.0 lattice) can readily penetrate the nearest two Coulomb barriers, to reach the vicinity of the strong nuclear force of either adjacent bound deuteron, even if it lacks the full 4.3 MeV energy proved here to be REQUIRED for Resonant Transmission completely through the potential wells: so standard quantum mechanics actually PREDICTS “aneutronic cold fusion” in a (supersaturated, “beta” phase) Pd-D 1.0 periodic palladium-deuterium lattice.
Well, that’s a roundabout way of measuring. You let the river flow over a waterfall, drive a turbine at the waterfall, and then measure how much electricity you get. You sell the electricity. If it’s a profitable project, you build another mill...
Anyway, I used that analogy and the approach to getting around the direct measuring problem as a way to approach Rossi's project.
Remember, the fellow measuring the river fooled himself ~ you really can't find out how much fresh water you have (in a meaningful way) if every now and then there's a load of sewage in it.
I have this funny feeling that he felt he could use an electron catalyst to push the LENR reaction, so he started with Thorium and is ending up with Technetium as the catalyst. It worked better on Nickel-Hydride because NiH was a much harder reaction to get going than Palladium-Deuterium. Even the LENR proponents have a hard time believing that this works in Nickel/Hydrogen. So, once his idea worked, he KNEW he was on the right track.
He doesn’t need to know all the exact theory, any more than the Wright brothers needed to know all the exact theory to get their planes to fly. But there was a window of time where the Wright brothers were the premier aerodynamic scientists of the time, and no one knew it.
Before all this came to the forefront, I was thinking of doing exactly that as an experiment... not that I have the means to do it.
However, if you really did want fresh water there’s still this problem of the sewage every now and then.
***That’s what everyone is focused on, whether or not there’s sewage (or Gamma Rays, or Neutrons, etc.) when all you really want is Electricity Out. If the sewage backs up your electricity generating turbine, you need to have turbines rugged enough to punch through it. If later on, it turns out there was no sewage, invariably some engineer or accountant asks why it was built so ruggedly in the first place.
Now you know why he's concerned.
True dat. But who made more money off the gold miners? The guy selling shovels who took a huge risk or Wells Fargo who waited until the gold strike was proven before moving in? If e-cat works, there will be a brazillion new possibilities to open up. Where is Atari now? If you looked at the personal computer market in 1978 and projected 20 years down the road you never would have guessed that Microsoft and Apple would rule the computer world.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse get the cheese.
The early worm gets the bird; the late worm fares more like the second mouse.
Cheers!
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