Posted on 06/26/2011 5:16:49 PM PDT by Kevmo
What do you think about Andrea Rossi's E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) technology? Game Changer, Stinks of Fraud or just your run of the mill Mad Scientist.
Biggest hurdle to me is his credibility, Rossi was convicted and jailed from a previous energy endeavor.
Appears to be real... http://defkalion-energy.com/
Odd that US rights are licensed to DOE connected Ampenergo.
my guess is too many income streams are impacted and the rollout here will be slow.
Appears the media labeled the e-cat to be some type of cold fusion or LENR. Rossi and company are claiming it to be a type of exothermic chemical reaction.
2011 - Andrea Rossi Explains His Energy Catalyzer
Welcome to my laboratory. This is where we make the tests of our reactors and of the modules that we will go to compound the one megawatt plant that we are manufacturing, and will be started in October in Greece.
Let's start from the very beginning. We have here the plug that is taking power from the grid. You can say that we are consuming or drawing 3.4 amperes. 3.4 amperes with voltage of 220 volts which is the normal voltage in Italy. So, we are taking 3.4 times 220 is 748 watt hours per hour. This is the energy that we are taking out. Later we will see how much energy we are producing with the E-Cat.
Now you will see the E-Cats. These are the E-Cats. At the moment we are making a test with one E-Cat which is this one. This is the thermal couple that measures the temperature in the chimney of the reactor. The reactor is this, in this area. This is the insulation the black one, and this is the chimney. And from the chimney exits the steam and through this black hose that goes to the sink. Here is the sink and the steam goes through there. And we also have another thermal couple which is this one. This thermal couple measures the temperature of the water that goes inside the reactor. This is a pump that pumps from this reservoir to the reactor. So you can see this pipe pumping water from the reservoir, and sends the water through this blue hose to the inlet of the E-Cat which is this. Here we have a double wall jacket between the two walls we have a flow of water. The water cools down the reactor and turns to steam. The energy will be calculated considering the amount of water that we consume every hour, that we consume by weighing, by measuring the weight by the water we consume. And the delta T,: the difference of temperature between the two thermal couples.
In this of the data of the two thermal couples, as you can see from these wires flow through this data collector, and this data collector sends that to the computer. In fact, if we go to see the monitor of this computer, we will see that we have in the first column, C1, is the room temperature. Today it is a very hot day. We have 31.8 degrees Celsius in the room. In this side here, we have in C2 the temperature of the water at the inlet of the reactor, which is the water in the reservoir. Which is at this moment 26.5 Celsius degrees, which at the output we are measuring 100.1 degrees Celsius degrees because it is steam.
We have room pressure, as everyone knows at 100 C degrees that water boils and becomes steam. These are where you can see this. The blue bottom line is the water inlet. The red line is the room temperature and the yellow line is the temperature of the steam. Now this is the control panel. Here happen all the regulations of the system. All of what happens inside the rector is regulated through this. Also temperature, suppression, etc etc. And here... oh sure.. .inside the cover I can open the cover just to let you see there is no exotic.. you can just see that here inside we do not have any batteries or any stupidity like that. This is just electronic stuff.
And here you see another very important thing which is the measurement of the gamma rays. This is the measurement of the gamma rays. Now we are measuring .15 microseiversts per hour in the enviroment outside of the reactor. This is a standard gauge to measure the gamma radiation. This is a "gamma scout." In this moment, it is giving us data .13 micros eiverts per hour, which means we are pretty safe, because of course the reactor is shielded and the gamma rays are thermalized. The low energy gamma rays which we produced are thermalized inside of the reactor, and it is for this reason that we have energy production.
Now to have a very rapid calculation of the energies... At this point I have also to show you the hydrogen system. This is the hydrogen tank. The hydrogen before we start the production this cap is screwed to this point. Now we have a security cap we take off this cap we screw this one and through this hose we discharge the hydrogen inside the reactor. I can say with one gram of hydrogen we have twenty four hours of work. So basically you can think we put this here security and screw this right here after taking off this green cap we put this place this silver cap and open here and here, and we will have the pressure and we have the hydrogen inside there reactor and the pressure that will work. Then we close everything. The hydrogen is charged, and for 24 hours it is set.
Now I can explain better the system of water distribution. As you see water arrives from here, is pumped by the para-static pump through these veins that go inside the double jacket. Here inside we have a double jacket. Between the two jackets there is the cooling water, which is the water that we steam up to collect the energy. The water comes here this is the chimney. At this point the water is operated, because here we are at 99.9 degrees Celsius which is the upper limit of liquid state of water. Here we have pressure, room pressure, this is important to specify because the boiling point is a function of the pressure. This is the thermal couple that measures the temperature of the water in the chimney. Then the steam flows through this pipe. This pipe is of course is about 100 C degrees Celsius so you cannot take your hand above, and this goes to the sink where the steam is going, that is right there. Some steam is going out because... Much of what goes out. Yes, we have some condensation. But there is small condensation because this (hose) is very short and the maximum part is steam that goes out.
Just a moment. Put it. Got it. Steam. This is steam. And of course it is not that visible because it is very hot. Being very hot, it has less density. And so it is not very visible. But you can see the steam. On white you cannot see it well. With black you can see. But it is not very visible because it is very hot. Steam you can see well at low temperatures like fog, but when it is hot it is very dispersant.
At this moment we are making seven kilograms of water. Seven kilograms that we know perfectly because we weight the water that we put inside. Every time that we recharge, we weight the water and so we know exactly what is the weight of the water that we are passing through the reactor in one hour. The temperature is 101 degrees. This is a special rubber for high temperature. This is a rubber that resists up to 180 degrees Celsius.
Now we can make the calculations.....
curvefitter
Total Posts: 56 Joined: Oct 2007
Posted: 2011-06-26 06:35 What is this doing here?
Please move. also: Was not convicted nor jailed as far as i know, but just charged
IQuant1
Total Posts: 2 Joined: Jun 2011
Posted: 2011-06-26 14:31 Impacts the Energy Sector if its the real deal.
curvefitter
Total Posts: 56 Joined: Oct 2007
Posted: 2011-06-26 16:22 Well in that case you need to do better research..
The conviction story is bogus -- they are not calling it chemical but they are trying to minimize the LENR angle to avoid being compared to Fleischmann-Pons. There are videos of a demonstation done at the university of bologna a few month ago on youtube, look for them. They said the next step would be a bigger reactor in october.
Tradenator
Total Posts: 950 Joined: Sep 2006
Posted: 2011-06-27 01:21 See Peebles' "Quantum Mechanics" book, chapter 1, section 9 for a description of tunneling with deuterons (cold fusion). In particular, read the last paragraph's discussion on compressing the electron wave function and the realism of the corresponding energies involved.
The demonstration provided for Steve Krivit was far from convincing.
If every internet link didn’t link back to the same organization I would be less skeptical.
Hello, my 2 favorite cosmologists...
I was wondering if this comment about Peebles’ “Quantum Mechanics” deuteron tunneling rings a bell?
Tradenator
Total Posts: 950 Joined: Sep 2006
Posted: 2011-06-27 01:21 See Peebles’ “Quantum Mechanics” book, chapter 1, section 9 for a description of tunneling with deuterons (cold fusion). In particular, read the last paragraph’s discussion on compressing the electron wave function and the realism of the corresponding energies involved.
I think it’s probably a sham, but I’m willing to be convinced.
You mean these nuclearphynance guys link back to Rossi somehow?
I note that Tradenator joined in 2006, how is that possible if Rossi’s putting up the Defkalion website only this year?
You should join forces with fellow FReeper Swordmaker and start pimping the *iE-Cat*
I guess basically the way I’d put it is that he’s using his own money and says he’ll have a working plant in October. If he’s a fraud we’ll find out soon and spectacularly, and not too many people will be out of their hard earned cash.
They’re having similar discussions at the Vortex-L mailing list
http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-
Note that Horace Hefner is the author of the “Deflation Fusion” theory and Jed Rothwell is the keeper of the LENR-CANR website http://www.lenr-canr.org/
DEFLATION FUSION
Saturday, January 01, 2011 3:40:33 AM · by Kevmo · 49 replies
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2650125/posts
Journal of Nuclear Physics ^ | December 10, 2010 | Horace Heffner
Okay, suppose there is only 800 W input with no anomalous heat
Horace Heffner
Fri, 24 Jun 2011 17:00:04 -0700
On Jun 24, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
YOW — WHAT YOU JUST SAID !!!!
On 11-06-24 04:20 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
So the only way for Rossi to make it produce a little steam and a lot of hot water would be for him to adjust the anomalous heat output. It would be a miracle if Rossi has such good control over the anomalous heat that he can push the temperature up to 99°C and have mostly liquid water go through plus a little steam. If he can do that, he has truly mastered cold fusion!
Jed, man, think about that — don’t just jerk your knee at me in an automatic defense of Rossi, really think about it.
Rossi has a factor of SEVEN in output level in the range he has to hit in order to produce SOME steam and SOME hot water, and you have just said it would be hard for him to control the anomalous heat well enough to do that.
But Rossi’s claiming to have produced exactly enough heat to EXACTLY vaporize all the input water, and NOT HEAT THE STEAM beyond boiling — that target is orders of magnitude smaller than the target he’d need to hit to produce some steam and some hot water! If he overshoots his “dry steam” power level by even a little, the steam temperature will go up by a lot; the specific heat of steam is very small compared to the heat of vaporization of water. But the temperature never rises more than about a degree over boiling!
Jed, the point you just made is the point that’s been bugging me all along — it would take a miracle of fine control to generate EXACTLY enough anomalous heat to EXACTLY vaporize all the input water, without superheating the steam, and without leaving wet steam or having the device spit water!
There’s no evidence of that degree of control, no evidence of a feedback loop which could be providing it, no reason except wishful thinking to believe such control exists ... so the conclusion is that he’s actually got the power level set somewhere within the “factor of 7” window, and he’s producing very wet steam or a mix of steam and liquid water; he does *NOT* have it “right on the edge”, producing dry steam just over the boiling point. It’s absurd to think he could exercise the level of precise control needed to produce “exactly dry steam”.
(And that about uses up my Friday night send-some-useless-email time...)
Hi Stephen,
It is not difficult at all to achieve something that *looks* like perfectly regulated high thermal output by simply using percolator type effects to dump water into the output hose. I commented on this earlier in another thread, quoted below.
On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:35 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:
If you look at the E-cat design you can see that it has the potential to act similar to a coffee percolator. See:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VIn_mQi1H-M/TZ1ZIpKD4-I/AAAAAAAALAE/ xo1T4ZRm41o/s1600/ECAT_explained.jpg
http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/WO2009125444
It is a boiling chamber followed by a vertical tube and elevated ejection port. A relative humidity sensor will max out at 100%, and would not be capable of detecting a percolator style of operation. It is merely a polymer or metal oxide thin film protected by a porous metal electrode. It can not measure steam quality. There is no reason to expect that water on the surface of the protecting porous metal electrode will have a significant effect on an already 100% RH reading.
A percolator can produce liquid mass flows far exceeding 1% by volume of gas. The amount of percolation obtained can be controlled by controlling the ratio of the flow of water to the amount of heat applied to the chamber. Active controllers exist in the Rossi device.
Water has been seen coming out of the hose. Unless careful measurements are taken it is not known the quantity of water vs gas.
On Jun 24, 2011, at 10:53 AM, Horace Heffner wrote:
It is notable that the power input varies depending on the controller actions, that if the power input (plus any nuclear output heat if any) should become less than that required to convert all the input water to steam then the liquid excess will eventually simply overflow, i.e. be pumped out into the hose and down the drain.
Note that the pump rate is small, on the order of a few cc per second, so it can take a while to fill up a hose held upright into the air, even if the device itself is full of water - which probably can not happen due to percolator type effects.
Ironically, all that is required to get “excess” heat is to *reduce* the input power occasionally (or even permanently) so as to pump some excess water out instead of steam.
Something that would obviously be helpful for demos would be the use of translucent tubing, such as polyamide (nylon) tubing, which is good up to 100 °C, instead of black rubber. See:
http://www.graylineinc.com/tubing-materials/nylon.html
A transparent U-trap just past the current steam exit might prove informative.
This kind of optimization of systematic error could happen unintentionally. The original E-cats used a pulsed pump which would optimize the percolator effects. The smaller E-cats have a shorter “chimney”, which further optimizes such an effect and makes it even more feasible and fast acting even if a smaller non-pulsed pump is used.
Best regards,
Horace Heffner
no comprehendo
I’m betting sock puppet.
Anybody can sign up and post at that website (and note that the first commenter suggests that question should be put elsewhere).
The links in the OP link to sites that (mirable dictu!) seem to describe physics but seem also to only describe e-cat. I’ve never seen anything on a mainstream physics site (or any e-cat link that went to a legitimate physics site).
Look, this technology, if true, would be worth a fortune. Rossi would have started a company and launched small generators a long time ago and said ‘screw the big money, the big money will come when I show that it works’.
My 50th of a dollar.
He has rounded up 400M Euros from investors. That’s 6X as much money attracted in one year as Mills has gathered in 20 years.
If it is a scam, it’s a big one, and worth following if only for just that reason alone.
Investing 400 million in Xanthi for “cold fusion” of hydrogen
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2738942/posts
Thursday, June 23, 2011 11:30:41 AM · by Kevmo · 48 replies
Energy Press ^ | June 23 2011 | Energy Press
Look, this technology, if true, would be worth a fortune. Rossi would have started a company and launched small generators a long time ago and said ‘screw the big money, the big money will come when I show that it works’.
***That’s exactly what he is doing and also exactly what he is saying. My stance is, how can I get in on the ground floor? The guys who made the biggest money in the California gold rush were the ones selling shovels and blue jeans and mining equipment.
The demonstration provided for Steve Krivit was far from convincing.
***I know. I’m the one who posted that thread. Did you read what Jed Rothwell came up with?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2736442/posts#48
It could just boil down to a simple miscommunication due to language barrier.
Or... it could be a scam. But the discussion on Vortex-L doesn’t seem to support the scam angle.
I read that thread and think I posted on it. I make the remark in this thread for the benefit of posters who aren’t familiar with Krivit’s video. I’m going to read the comments at the link you provided now.
Impacting someelses income stream is not my concern
If they deliberately slow the importation of the device, that’s just blatant corruption
If it works... it would save every household thousands per year
Just don’t put all your eggs into e-cat s’all I’m sayin.
OTHER sites devoted to high energy physics really don't want to hear about it.
All of which makes sense.
Weggener's hypothesis about moving continents didn't get accepted until a century after he proposed it. The scientific journals waited until somebody came up with some evidence for a mechanism to move the continents ~ to wit, tectonic plates.
More recently there have been proposals that tectonic plates don't really exist ~ that they are an illusion ~ and we still don't know why the continents move ~ but that doesn't matter since we now have scientific instruments that show us that movement.
What is going to happen here is somebody is going to have to come up with a theory for the conversion of quarks before any of the LENR theses are accepted. That, of course, will simultaneously trash all the theories underlying the current understanding of high energy physics.
They will be mad as wet hens I am sure.
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