Posted on 04/07/2008 1:28:28 PM PDT by CottShop
Not my place to judge GOD or question GOD.
If this debate makes y’all happy, have at it.
It is what it is.
You mean of course of the fruit of the tree.
And of course again, it is all very simple.
And as for animals, pets are routinely beaten, maimed, tortured and killed by cruel individuals. Why does God allow that to happen?
Remember Satan was an angel who was envious of God so he chose to become evil.
The Origin of Evil and Suffering
Okay, so you are saying this world is not as ideal as Heaven, and the reason our world is worse is because of the mistakes of Adam and Eve. Am I correct?
If so, then I must ask: if God is all good, and all powerful, why did he structure things so that Adam and Eve *could* make a mistake? Why didn't God make the world so that Adam and Eve could have free will, but at the same time make them unable to stain humanity with their mistakes? That could not have been very difficult for an all-powerful being.
...Maybe God wants us to learn what true Love is so we will understand what it means to give and trust without question. Maybe if we'd truly loved Him we would have had that trust to obey without question and we'd still be in Eden.
An all-powerful God could have achieved those objectives without any risk of evil at all. Again, by definition God can do anything. So why did He even give us the slightest chance to mess things up, if He could have reached his desired outcome without the possibility of error?
[[If the desired end result is to bring souls to Heaven who believe and act a certain way, why not simply make them that way to begin with?]]
Because then you lose free will and love becomes shallow forced love.
[[Wouldn’t it be better to simply destroy the failed ones? Why create a being from nothing just so you can torture it for eternity?]]
That’s a pretty deep question and one I’ll have to be feelign a bit better to tackle-
[[unequal distribution of circumstances? For example, one person could be born into a godless family of thieves, while another born into a middle-class family of devout church-goers.]]
This assumes that circumstances dictate what the soul decides and discounts the fact that the Holy Spirit works on every single soul individually- There is a universal moral code that is written on each heart, and although a person can grow up to silence that code and the promptings of the Holy Spirit, this does not mean that the circumstances force a person to choose only hte evil- God gives each person a conscience to know hte right and wrong- There are many testimonies from natives who came out of compeltely evil civilizatiosn who confessed that although it was ‘acceptable’ by hte comunity to do the evil, they never felt right about it- this is powerful testimony to hte fact that there is indeed a universal moral code, and shows that civilizations who prefere the evil have tried to circumvent hte universal moral code with hteir own subjective codes and ethics- but hte fact remains, no matter how evil the society, the universal moral code still exists and EACH person chooses which they will serve.
[[Either person could choose the right or wrong path, but wouldn’t the child born to thieves be at a much higher risk for choosing the wrong path?]]
I don’t believe so- The Hoyl Spirit works on each heart individually and just as hard as any other person’s heart. God knows the hearts that want to do the good regardless of where they are raised. I’ll try to do a better job addressing that a bit later- perhaps I’ll do a post on it on my blog- it’s a good question
[[We assume that God is all-powerful and all-good]]
We actually do more than “assume”- we have first hand knowledge of htis fact through eyewitness accounts.
[[Why would God resort to any means that involved something “not good” if He is not bound by logic or the rules of this universe?]]
God resorts to evil?
[[For example, it is said that God allows evil so that we’ll have a point of comparison for appreciating the good.]]
I’ll have to correct you here- while an outcome of God’s actions can give us a reference of good and evil- God does not allow evil so that we will have a reference- He allows Evil as judgement, His actions and Holy and Just judgements are not for our ‘edification’.
[[Why couldn’t an all-powerful God, who created the universe and all the rules governing it, make it so that we could simulataneously enjoy free will AND not have the ability to make the wrong choices?]]
The quick answer is because then love is shallow and forced- there’s just no gettign aroudn this fact- if we’re made to love Him without hte possibility of choosing not to- then there simply is no choice, and thus no free will. (And by the way- as I’ve said in my blog in the past- God does work in the saved individual’s life to want to love Him as we aught- but htis coems after we freely choose to accept salvation. Even after salvation, we still have sin nature, and our wills still resist wanting to love and serve Him as we ought to, but ?He graciously gives us hte Holy Spirit which will, if we ask in a truthful and honest manner somethign liek “God- I really don’t weant to love You as I ought, please give me the desire even htough I don’t want it really becaue it conflicts with my will”
[[I know those questions seem illogical, but remember that God is the creator of logic and is not bound by logic.]]
No- they’r3e not illogical and are good quesitons.
[[An all powerful God, by definition, can achieve any objective by any means. ]]
Actually no- God’s Holiness can not achieve evil- all powerful does not mean capable of anythign imanigable- God’s Holy Nature constrains Him agaisnt doing certain things that are contrary to His nature.
That was quite a clever bit of reverse psychology on God's part.
[[Not my place to judge GOD or question GOD.]]
Nobody is judging God- And if you’ll read hte bible carefully, you will see that many did indeed question God- God is not above being questioned and welcomes inquirey
[[Why does God allow the torture of children who in their young lives have no conception of a supreme being and have no means to either accept or reject Jesus?]]
Do you know their future hearts? God does!
[[And as for animals, pets are routinely beaten, maimed, tortured and killed by cruel individuals. Why does God allow that to happen?]]
Because we invited evil into our lives when we ate hte apple, and now we have to endure hte consequences of our choice, and htis means that many many thigns will be unfair because evil peopel choose to do the evil instead of hte good. As well, our love of God is not dependent upon the good that is done to us- it involves a love that loves despite hte evil that is done- This is a powerful love, and not many peopel are willing to give this type of love-even to their creator.
and let’s not forget- those that torture will be repaid many fold for what they do on this earth- their judgement is awaiting htem
yeah, that is a somewhat easily understood aspect of evil/good- yet it is deeper than that and involves God’s Soveriegn right to judge and our being the clay of the potter, not the arbitrator of what God’s morals should or should not be.
Thank you for that link- I’ll certainly give it a good reading-
” the wise alone are able to do what they desire, but unscrupulous men can only labour at what they like, they cannot fulfil their real desires.”
I’ve made this argument for quite some time- those hwo think true freedom comes from ‘freely choosing’ evil and ashewing God so that ‘they may be totally free’ are infact subjecting htemselves to slavery to their passions and are far less free than those who submit to the King who gives us TRUE freedom
I’ve not read either of htose despite havign hte ‘mere christianity’ awhiel ago- never got aroufd to reading it. C.S was quite smart for sure.
[[Because He can. Never heard of the concept of “free will”, eh?]]
Free will? Wht’s that? Actually, the link I gave covers that quite well
All of that is true, according to *our* conception of logic. As we perceive things, humans can not be programmed to love God and at the same time exercise a meaningful choice to love God.
But if God is all-powerful, that means He isn't constrained by our conception of logic. After all, He is the author of logic and thus can fashion the rules to whatever He wants. If God wanted a universe where 2 + 2 = both 4 and 5, He could make it so. So why can't He make a universe where we automatically love Him, but at the same time our love is NOT shallow and forced?
Or is God constrained by our conception of logic, despite the fact that He is the one who designed logic itself? Is it possible for God to be constrained by His own creation?
Actually no- God’s Holiness can not achieve evil- all powerful does not mean capable of anythign imanigable- God’s Holy Nature constrains Him agaisnt doing certain things that are contrary to His nature.
I can accept the idea of a God who could not create evil. But where is the evil in what I am suggesting? I ask why God could not create a universe where evil did not exist. Surely prohibiting evil does not achieve evil...it seems like it would be the exact opposite. So why didn't God just prohibit evil in the first place, and use some other means to achieve all of His objectives that did not require the existence of evil?
Because it is hard to pull off a big flood every year.
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