Evidences for a Young Sun

internet ^ | 1996 | Keith Davies

[Creationist]

Evidences for a Young Sun

by Keith Davies

Select for 17k diagram of H-R Stellar evolution main sequence, (courtesy Barry J. Kellett, Rutherford Appleton Lab.)

According to current models of stellar evolution, when a star like our Sun is very young, its enormous output of energy is provided by gravitational contraction. As it grows older, the models show that the source of its energy should change over to that of nuclear fusion as it slowly develops a very hot and dense core. Where exactly does our Sun fit into this sequence?

The standard model of the Sun assumes that it is around 5 billion years old and that it has already passed into its nuclear burning stage. This makes it all the more extraordinary that in 1976 a team of Russian astronomers, writing in the respected British Scientific Journal Nature showed how their research pointed clearly to the startling fact that the Sun does not even seem to possess a large dense nuclear burning core. Instead, their

[GSlob]

Why not refer to Heraclites the Ephesian? He said "the Sun is born every day", and was way more interesting and profound at it.

[Alter Kaker]

PT Barnum said that a sucker is born every day, and there are no doubt people who will believe this nonsense. However, the idea that nuclear reactions are not taking place in the sun is completely and patently absurd. It's because of articles like this that reasonable, educated people fail to take your ilk seriously.

It's also more than telling that the best argument you can get is from a single obscure Soviet account from the 1970s, and that you make no mention of any solar research done before or since. The fact that you don't even mention SOHO, the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory, suggests that you aren't even remotely well versed on the subject matter. Post articles on theology. But go to school before you wade into science.

[Creationist]

3: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4: And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5: For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

[Creationist]

Because the sun is not born every day.

[Alter Kaker]

"The Solar System" diagram from page 6 of Theological Astronomy for Middle School Students, as approved for teaching by "Creationist."

Diagram from page 7, text above.

Sailors should avoid sailing out of sight of land, as this illustration from page 37 of Theogeography, by "Creationist" indicates. Sea monsters are an ever-present threat.

[Creationist]

It is intresting.

Haeckel forged embro stages to support evolution, and was proved wrong with a decade or so and yet they can still be found in some text books today.

[knarf]

I'm prayin' for you, brother.

[Alter Kaker]

It is intresting [sic]. Haeckel forged embro[sic] stages to support evolution, and was proved wrong with a decade or so and yet they can still be found in some text books today.

It is interesting. It does seem somewhat unlikely that Ernst Haeckel would do anything to support evolution, given that he did not believe in Darwinian evolution and was, in fact, an opponent of Darwin's. But then I suppose you knew that...

[Creationist]

Job 41

1: Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2: Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3: Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4: Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5: Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6: Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7: Canst thou fill his skin with barbed iron? or his head with fish spears?
8: Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9: Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10: None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11: Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12: I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13: Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14: Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15: His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16: One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17: They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18: By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19: Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20: Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21: His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22: In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23: The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24: His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25: When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26: The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27: He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28: The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29: Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30: Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31: He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32: He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.
33: Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without fear.
34: He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

This is God speaking to Job, he would not be talking about something Job did not know our understand.

This is a creationist view of why dragons as they were called before the mid 1800’s when they became dinosaurs.

http://www.creationdiscovery.org/cdp/articles/dinobrth.html

[Creationist]

If it makes you sleep better. OK

[Creationist]

Although trained as a physician, Haeckel abandoned his practice in 1859 after reading Darwin's Origin of Species. Always suspicious of teleological and mystical explanation, Haeckel used the Origin as ammunition both to attack entrenched religious dogma and to build his own unique world view.

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/haeckel.html

Notice it comes from Berkley a very evolutionary filled lieducation intuitions.

[Creationist]

You should really back your allegations with some kind of support as to where this comes from.
We home school are children with creation as the origins of the universe and everything in it. We do not hold to myths and outdated information as teaching.

Contrary to the belief of those entrenched in the belief the potatoes and man have a common ancestor, we do believe in science that is real and proved or observable.

[Alter Kaker]

This is God speaking to Job, he would not be talking about something Job did not know our[sic] understand.

Have you actually read the Book of Job? I'm highly skeptical. Because the whole point of Job is all about how Job cannot possibly understand the Almighty, certainly not from Genesis. If you read Job 41, as you claim you have, you must have also read Job 38, where God rebukes Job for doing exactly what you are doing.

I would strongly advise you to read it, because I think it discredits the whole hubris behind your attempt to literalize the Bible into some sort of definitive, absolute knowledge of God. I would refer your creationist friends to the chapter as well. Accordingly (and forgive me) I'm printing it in it's entirety, from the KJV version:

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. [Emphasis: Mine]
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
10 and brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11 and said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed? Jer. 5.22
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 that it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? Or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? Declare if thou knowest it all.
19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? And as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20 that thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? Or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23 which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26 to cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27 to satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28 Hath the rain a father? Or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29 Out of whose womb came the ice? And the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Plei'ades, or loose the bands of Ori'on? Job. 9.9 · Amos 5.8
32 Canst thou bring forth Maz'zaroth in his season? Or canst thou guide Arctu'rus with his sons?
33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? Canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are?
36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? Or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? Or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38 when the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40 when they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41 Who provideth for the raven his food? When his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

[Alter Kaker]

Did you read your own link? It would have helped you out:

An extremely common misperception is that natural selection and evolution are the same thing. In fact, Haeckel is one of many thinkers who believed that all species were historical entities (lineages) but did not share Darwin's enthusiasm for natural selection as the main mechanism for generating the diversity of the biological world. Haeckel instead believed that the environment acted directly on organisms, producing new races (a version of Lamarckism).

Haeckel supported Lamarckism and was in fact an enemy of Darwinian evolution, which is what anybody in the last hundred years has thought of when "evolution" is referred to. Do your homework.

[shield]

bttt

[Creationist]

Haeckel supported Lamarckism and was in fact an enemy of Darwinian evolution, which is what anybody in the last hundred years has thought of when "evolution" is referred to. Do your homework.

Today, the name of Lamarck is associated merely with a discredited theory of heredity, the "inheritance of acquired traits." However, Charles Darwin, Lyell, Haeckel, and other early evolutionists acknowledged him as a great zoologist and as a forerunner of evolution. Charles Darwin wrote in 1861:

All versions of the same thimg. Different spins same outcome. They all deny a creator and belive that millions or billions of years have shaped the planet and the life upon it.

[Alter Kaker]

All versions of the same thimg.

So I assume that you basically endorse teaching the Iriquois and Japanese Shinto creation myths in public schools, since they are theistic and recent?

Lamarck was a great biologist, however his theories were wrong and it was not, by any strech modern evolution. As for denying a creator, you're just mistaken. I don't deny a creator, and I don't know too many evolutionary biologists who do.

[Creationist]

First off I am not discrediting God, to Jesus goes the Glory.

Secondly God himself commanded us to

Genesis 1:

28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The Hebrew word for subdue

kabash {kaw-bash'}

1) to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage

a) (Qal)

1) to bring into bondage, make subservient

2) to subdue, force, violate

3) to subdue, dominate, tread down

b) (Niphal) to be subdued

c) (Piel) to subdue

d) (Hiphil) to bring into bondage

Sure has the ring of learn it, how else could bring into bondage if you did not understand how it works.

As to verse 4 of Job

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.

That verse does not speak to me for I do not claim anything that is not in the Bible and the theory of evolution is not in the Bible nor billions of years nor, the big bang.

That verse does speak to secular men who claim to know how the earth was formed through the big bang process.

 

As to Job 38:7

7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There is a prophetic statement there that we were only able to discern in the 20^th century. That is morning stars sang, this could be referring to radio stars and the earth before the flood.

Job 38:16

Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea.

The springs in the sea were not discovered until the 1970’s.

In general though this is God saying do you have control of these things, did you create it.

I did not. He is not telling us not to discover and understand the workings.

This chapter does in know way say that the Word of God that is written in the Bible is not to be taken literally.

John 1:

1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: The same was in the beginning with God.
3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5: And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[Creationist]

All of them that believe a tomatoe, a mosquito, a monkey, and you are from a common ancestor.