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Darwin Among the Believers (theory of evolution crucial for many fields)
Tech Central Station ^ | 07/22/2005 | Frederick Turner

Posted on 07/22/2005 4:46:53 AM PDT by Nicholas Conradin

In a recent TCS essay ("Darwin and Design: The Evolution of a Flawed Debate") I attacked what I regarded as the excesses of both sides of the evolution-creationism debate. There were angry responses in the mail and the blogosphere from both the creationist and the evolution sides, which pleased me, since there were clearly oxen on both sides that felt they had been gored, and caps in my piece that were felt to have, uncomfortably, fit. The angry evolutionists were especially interesting, as they often wound up admitting implicitly that their real agenda was atheism -- while denying that there was any social policy message in that agenda.

In the essay I did state flatly that the theory of evolution had been proved. I wanted it to be clear where I stood. Much of the mail I received protested about that statement. I hold to it, and hold to it not as my own opinion, but as a fact, like the existence of Australia, which is not my opinion but a fact. But I do know that there are many who sincerely, and given their range of knowledge, rationally, do not believe in the theory of evolution.

By the theory of evolution I mean the origination of new species from common ancestral forms by an iterated process of genetic mutation, natural selection, and hereditary transmission, whereby the frequencies of newly altered, repeated, and old genes and introns in a given lineage can cross ecological, structural, and behavioral thresholds that radically separate one species from another. In one sense, this can be summed up in a syllogism, which must be true if we make the basic and essential act of faith that logic itself is true: survivors survive. Given enough time, variation among the genes of individuals, variations in habitat in space and time, the process by which genes translate into proteins, tissues, and organs, and the thresholds that define biological species, all of which can be observationally verified, the principle of the "survivors survive" syllogism must bring about a huge branching of different kinds of life.

The above summary statement of the theory will not convince opponents, who will be able to pick philosophical holes in it (which holes have been sewn up by countless scientists and philosophers in the last 150 years). But what opponents of evolution do not perhaps realize is what they are up against in terms of sheer human and civilizational achievement based on the evolutionary paradigm. This is not a proof of evolution, any more than the four-thousand year history of the survival of the Jewish people is a proof of Judaism or the worldwide congregation of Christianity is a proof of that religion; but it is an indication of the kind of scholarship that would be needed to refute it.

There are at least 50 major journals in the academic field of biology. All accept without question the theory of evolution as I outlined it above. They are not attempting even to prove the theory, any more than math journals attempt to prove that the sum of the internal angles of a plane triangle is 180 degrees, or engineering journals revisit the existence of gravity. But they would be nonsense without the theory of evolution, just as engineering would be nonsense without gravity. Each of those journals is published about four times a year; several of them have been in existence for over a hundred years. Each journal contains at least ten articles of about 2-20 pages, and each of those articles represents several months' or years' work by a team of trained biologists whose most compelling material and moral interest would be to disprove the work of all their predecessors and to make an immortal name by doing so. The work of the biological teams is required to be backed up by exhaustive experiment and observation, together with exact statistical analysis of the results. There is a continuous process of search through all these articles by trained reviewers looking for discrepancies among them and demanding new experimental work to resolve them. Since every one of these articles relies on the consistency and truth of the theory of evolution, every one of them adds implicitly to the veracity of the theory. By my calculation, then, opponents of evolution must find a way of matching and disproving, experiment by experiment, observation by observation, and calculation by calculation, at least two million pages of closely reasoned scientific text, representing roughly two million man-years of expert research and perhaps trillions of dollars of training, salaries, equipment, and infrastructure.

But the task of the opponent does not end here. For biology is not the only field for which the theory of evolution is an essential foundation. Geology, physical anthropology, agricultural science, environmental science, much of chemistry, some areas of physics (e.g. protein folding) and even disciplines such as climatology and oceanography (which rely on the evolutionary history of the planet in its calculations about the composition of the atmosphere and oceans), are at least partially founded on evolution. Most important of all for our immediate welfare, medicine is almost impossible as a research discipline without evolutionary theory. So perhaps the opponent must also throw in another 4 million pages, four million man-years, and ten trillion dollars -- and be prepared to swallow the billions of human deaths that might follow the abandonment of the foundations of medical, mining, environmental, agricultural, and climatological knowledge.

If what is at stake is a proposition in the theology of biblical interpretation that is not shared by a large minority or possibly a majority of Christians and Jews, perhaps it might be more prudent to check the accuracy of the theology, which, after all, is a human creation even if scripture itself is conceded to be divinely inspired. Might not God's intentions be revealed better in the actual history and process of nature, his creative expression, than in the discrepancies we might hope to find in its self-consistency and coherent development?


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: atheism; biology; creationism; crevolist; darwin; evolution; medicine; pharisee
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To: Stark_GOP
You haven't answered the question; you've merely distracted from the point. What is the difference between non-life and life? At what point can organic chemical reactions be considered life?

This is not nearly as obvious as you seem to think it is.

81 posted on 07/22/2005 9:39:56 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: mike182d
But when that proposed "how" contradicts the revealed nature of God...then we have a problem.

Revealed to whom? Why do you trust that person? How do you double-check that person's claims?

82 posted on 07/22/2005 9:42:17 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: El Laton Caliente

I suppose God personally came and made this revelation to you?

My Bible explains in rather simple terms to rather simple people that God created the heavens and the earth, but not the details of how…
---
An attempt at a personal attack?
The Bible states simply and clearly in Exodus that God made the world in six days.


83 posted on 07/22/2005 9:47:39 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
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To: mike182d

If you believe a God cannot do evil and that God created everything then how do you reconcile that with the existence of evil?


84 posted on 07/22/2005 9:48:58 AM PDT by AntiGuv (™)
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To: Ichneumon

great post.


85 posted on 07/22/2005 9:58:12 AM PDT by King Prout (and the Clinton Legacy continues: like Herpes, it is a gift that keeps on giving.)
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To: Junior
You haven't answered the question; you've merely distracted from the point. What is the difference between non-life and life? At what point can organic chemical reactions be considered life?
This is not nearly as obvious as you seem to think it is.
---
I wasn't answering a question. I was making a statement.

Here's an answer for ya.
When they put you in a little box and cover you up with dirt and rocks.
When they wrap you in a big white sheet and put you six feet underneath.
Your dead! (Of course, unless your a voter in Chicago.)
86 posted on 07/22/2005 10:00:42 AM PDT by Stark_GOP
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To: mlc9852
Why is it when evolution is discussed, the subject of God always comes up? It doesn't come up when discussing calculus, geology, astrophysics, or any other scientific discipline.

It does. The anti-evo crowd assumes you know that these other disciplines are part of the "study of evolution".

87 posted on 07/22/2005 10:02:53 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: mike182d
The proposition that an omnipotent being would create a force that would act in a manner unbeknowst to Him would imply that an omniscient God chose to no longer be omniscient and thus no longer "God."

I'm a would-be writer. When I write, I create and control a universe -- certainly, though not with the level of detail as God.

But there are times, when my characters start taking over. I can feel them taking over, telling me what they want to do. I could force them to change, but I follow their lead, because it makes things more interesting.

Does God do that? Well, we are created in God's image. So if would-be creators let their creations take over the reins, then it follows God might well do the same.

88 posted on 07/22/2005 10:03:21 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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To: narby
Christians could also believe that God created chance and built the right circumstances for evolution.

I would have said selection rather than chance, but this Christian has no problems with science, or specifically, evolution.

89 posted on 07/22/2005 10:05:51 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: nmh
Either you believe an unlimited God who can do anything, as stated in the Bible or you believe limited man who denies Him with a diametrically opposing theory.

If you want to formulate this a diametric opposition, wrt to which there is no possible compromise ever, then your problem isn't with "a" theory but rather with all scientific theories. All scientific theories implicitly assume the regularity and law abiding character of nature, i.e. that miracles don't occur within their applicable domain.

This, of course, is an "operational" assumption, made simply for the purpose of doing science, and not therefore a direct challenge to extra-scientific claims. But accepting this understanding in any form would necessarily eliminate "diametric opposition" and I suppose amount to a "compromise".

By your "logic" the theory of photosynthesis, for instance, denies God since God certainly could change (or replace with sheer miracle) the chemical reactions occurring in cells and their plastids. But then militant, fulminating extremism invariably leads to stupid results.

90 posted on 07/22/2005 10:06:31 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: orionblamblam

We had a nearly identical analysis of nmh's #3.

...great minds ;-)


91 posted on 07/22/2005 10:08:55 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: mrjeff
I wrote an extensive post on my blog about it.

Uh, no thanks! I'll pass.

92 posted on 07/22/2005 10:08:58 AM PDT by elbucko
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To: Ichneumon

I just love it when you weigh into these threads! Leftists and Creationists are equally irrational. The most troubling thing is that the Creationists actually believe what they espouse.


93 posted on 07/22/2005 10:10:19 AM PDT by fire and forget
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks! Plamely the Crevos are the early risers around here.


94 posted on 07/22/2005 10:11:54 AM PDT by fire and forget
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To: cyborg

You are not descended from a chimp. However, you and a chimp are descended from a common ancestor.

You may believe it or not as you like. Doesn't change the fact either way.


95 posted on 07/22/2005 10:13:17 AM PDT by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: mlc9852
Why is it when evolution is discussed, the subject of God always comes up? It doesn't come up when discussing calculus, geology, astrophysics, or any other scientific discipline. Why?

Good question. You could say it's biblical literalism, and a concern with human uniqueness. Those are both probably part of it, but it's not that simple.

For instance, as I've pointed out several times, the Bible affirms in many passages that God is intimately, personally and directly involved in the creation of individual humans; not just the species, and not just Adam and Eve. This includes "forming" and "shaping" the "inward parts" of humans in the womb, and "knitting them together of bone and sinew". (Excuse possibly not exact quotes from memory.) Yet you never, ever hear a fundamentalist complain about human embryology being taught as a strictly naturalistic discipline.

96 posted on 07/22/2005 10:16:03 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: theBuckwheat
Weather does not require a starting point from which to function.

Sure it does. Please engage brain before posting.

Life must.

Of course, it does too.

Even a child knows that life is differentiated from non-life,

Please state the exact differentiation. We'll wait.

that a test tube of chemicals cannot give birth to another test tube of chemicals.

Sure it does, once your sloppy undefined term "birth" is narrowed down appropriately.

While research into the origins of life may have been "fruitful", it still lacks the essential point of proof that is the foundation of any peer review system.

Congratulations, you managed to screw up a fundamental principle of the scientific method while attempting to "lecture" the rest of us on it. Science does not deal in "proof". Indeed, outside of artificial self-contained realms such as propositional mathematics, "proof" is an impossible standard to achieve in any real-world endeavor.

So far, no "peer" has been able to reproduce what God claims: life from constituent components.

No one has managed to catch any god in the act of doing so either. Call that one a draw. But that doesn't negate the successful research results which you attempt, and fail, to just hand-wave away.

You will recall that the inability of the scientific peers of Ponds and Fleishman to reproduce their cold-fusion experiment was the basis to label these claims as being unfounded. Why the double standard?

There is no double standard, unless you're trying to assert that anyone has actually claimed to have successfully produced life already, and then no one bothered to replicate their process. Until then, there's no double standard at all. The research that *has* been done confirming various aspects of abiogenesis hypotheses, on the other hand, *can* and *has* been reproduced. Science 1, you 0.

Let's be honest: evolutionists need to prove that God is not who He says He is: the creator of life.

Let's be honest, you haven't a clue what you're talking about. The *majority* of American evolutionists are *Christians*. Sorry if that makes your head explode, and destroys your ignorant prejudices about what evolutionists "need" to do.

Indeed, it seems to me these folks are frantic to find any other possible way to explain life- other than it was created as a deliberate act by a higher power.

You "seem" to not have any real familiarity with the actual research. Your bigotries about people you misunderstand are duly noted.

A Creator that does not exist, or at least who has a major claim to his power nullified, cannot make any demands of humanity and certainly has no business setting standards of morality by which He will judge humanity in the resurrection. (Daniel 12:2, Rev 20:12) Indeed, the entire concept of a resurrection to judgement is mooted by evolutionary theology. When life comes from nothing, nothing is the standard for life.

Yawn. Let me know when you get back to talking about something that is actually a significant motivation for the scientists you don't know much about. Your conspiracy theory about them looking for excuses to sin is laughable, and quite simply false.

Why else would a Creator matter, or make necessary such lengthy and angry replies to the mere suggestion that evolutionists start from a faulty assumption, an assumption it is forbidden to mention in polite company.

You don't get "angry replies" about the "mere suggestion" that a creator might have been involved (a lot of us believe that to be the case) you get exasperated and annoyed replies from folks who are sick and tired of being called fools and charlatans by people who wouldn't know an endogenous retrovirus from a retroposon, and who argue against evolutionary biology using childishly flawed fallacies, ignorant claims, and outright propaganda, and who know next to nothing about the field they're attempting to "lecture" the rest of us on, and who say such bone-headedly insulting things as "even a child knows" in order to belittle a topic that is actually extremely complicated and nuanced, and has multiple layers of complexity as one looks deeper and deeper into it. Know anyone like that?

As one of the "Murphy's Laws" says, "if the problem seems simple, it's only because you really don't understand it properly."

97 posted on 07/22/2005 10:16:36 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: orionblamblam
Only when evolution is discussed by people who don't understand the theory.....but who do have a religion-based opposing view.

I agree. Their issue is not whether evolution is a valid scientific theory, but is it a threat to their religious belief. I've never had a problem in balancing the theoretical with the spiritual because they are not the same subject to me. To others, such as Muslim terrorists and Intelligent Designers, religion is all there is. Had Alexander Fleming discovered penicillin in a fundamental Christian retreat, a Muslim Mosque, or a Jewish Chabad, most of those posting on this thread would not be here.

98 posted on 07/22/2005 10:19:42 AM PDT by elbucko
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To: Stark_GOP

An attempt at a personal attack?
____________________________________
No...
____________________________________
The Bible states simply and clearly in Exodus that God made the world in six days.
____________________________________
But it does not say how...

...and just how long is six days to a God that has no begining and no end? How long is a day in a week that starts with no light?

I have a hard time understanding why some Christians feel so threatened by these concepts. Is your version the spirt truely that weak? Mine isn't...


99 posted on 07/22/2005 10:20:10 AM PDT by El Laton Caliente (NRA Member & GUNSNET.NET Moderator)
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To: Stark_GOP
You're still not answering the question.
100 posted on 07/22/2005 10:20:21 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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