I wondered about this myself.
Where are Kerry's original discharge papers?
Getting a discharge in 2001 is awfully odd.
This one smells a little funny. I'd suggest more investigation as to whether or not this is legit...
<< On 18 Feb. 1966 John Kerry signed a 6 year enlistment contract with the Navy .. >>
Nope.
He di no such thing.
Kerry's hitch was with the Naval Reserve.
The Navy's version of the [EG] Texas Air National Guard the Kerrorist Gang so disdains.
Hey AP....How about a FOIA Lawsuit for this like you did for Bush!
Could Clinton have pushed this through with the million "get out of jail free" papers he signed in the last few days????? He would have been CIC...
BTTT Wow. Wonder if the Swifties know the real answer to this? What you posted seems plausible.
Drudge reporting the NYTimes (or Slimes) tomorrow has another several-thousand word story on Bush's national guard service. Said that the public is getting tired of this but Rather and the Times keep on with the story.
I'm sure 60 Minutes / CBS will be just as quick to air an expose of Kerry as they were to air one about Bush.
Shall we send this information over to them so they'll get the word out? Or shall we wait for hell to freeze over?
I think there was already a post on this and someone explained the 2001 discharge. There is nothing there. If he had been court martialed you would know about it. You can't get a less the Honorable Discharge without due process and there is no evidence of a court martial.
Pardoned by Carter in 1977?
The record is puzzling. Why would Kerry claim hero status and then refuse to allow us to see his record and allow every reader to confirm his claims? Why, even in war time, does Kerry’ service in the USNR appear to stretch from 1966 to 1978, 12 years? How does one explain the strange irregularities (multiple citations for his Silver Star) and inconsistencies in the Kerry military records that are available? Why does the 6 year (plus six month?) USNR obligation begun by Kerry in 2/66 appear to end in 1/70 again, in time of war, even though available records seem to indicate that the terminal date of his reserve obligation was 17 Feb 1972? Why are the documents that should be available, not there? The answers to all these question may be linked and surprisingly obvious. My thesis would be very easy to disprove (if it is false) by simply releasing Kerry’s entire military record.
Even if you include a lot of puffery and self-promotion, Kerry’s in-country record in late 1968 and early 1969 was exceptional and one to be admired and honored. But, for reasons we do not yet understand, in roughly late 1969, Kerry turned bad.
In late 1969, Kerry asked for an early release from “active duty”even though he had re-upped to serve on active duty until August, 1970. He said he wished to enter the democrat party primary, held in September, 1970 in Massachusetts, to be a candidate for Congress for the Third District. He was detached from active duty effective 4:00 PM, 2 January 1970 and specifically reminded the he assumed “... The status of a member of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty.”
The paper trail of available Navy records disappears for almost 8 years. In March, 1970, Kerry drops out of the Congressional primary in favor of the notorious Father Drinan, Dean of Boston College Law School (where Kerry later attended law school, 1973-1976). From early, 1970 through the Summer of 1973, Kerry takes part in activities involving war protests, meeting in Paris with Viet Cong representatives and the leadership of the Vietnam Veterans
Against the War. These activities, some of which may have been legal, were of very questionable patriotism for an honest citizen of the US but certainly inappropriate for a US Naval officer.
That’s pretty much fact. Now, the thesis that explains the rest of the mysteries. I believe that Kerry was court martialed in the early 70s or otherwise terminated from the USNR under conditions other than honorable. Whatever actually happened represented a stain on Kerry’s record that might not have been taken lightly even by voters in Massachusetts.
Then, on January 21,1977, Democrat President Jimmy Carter (POTUS - January 20,1977 - January 20,1981) gave a blanket pardon, in Proclamation 4483, to certain offenders as follows:
“Acting pursuant to the grant of authority in Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution of the United States, I, Jimmy Carter, President of the United States, do hereby grant a full, complete and unconditional pardon to: (1) all persons who may have committed any offense between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder; and (2) all persons heretofore convicted, irrespective of the date of conviction, of any offense committed between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act, or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder, restoring to them full political, civil and other rights.”
Thus, if my thesis is correct, Kerry’s offense must have occurred between 2 January 1970 and March 28, 1973. My thesis suggests that during 1977, Kerry made application for full pardon under the administrative procedures promulgated by the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice. He almost certainly sought and received the support of Massachusetts Senator Kennedy who had much clout in the Carter administration. Kennedy may have been responsible for suggesting that the records of such a fine young man be embellished by Citations from the Secretary of the Navy, rather than a mere admiral, and in other details not yet known.
In my hypothesis, Kerry’s request for full pardon was granted. Kerry applied for his military records to be corrected accordingly, and applied for an honorable discharge. The Secretary of the Navy wrote to Kerry on Feb 16 1978, enclosing an Honorable Discharge Certificate and stating:
“This action is taken in accordance with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened ... to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty and determine whether they should be retained on the rolls of the Reserve Component or separated from the naval service pursuant to Secretarial instructions promulgated in reference [c].”
The reference, “[c],”is to “BUPERSMAN 3830300.” A Google search did not provide any information regarding the text of this provision. But, this might explain why he was discharged 12 long years after enlistment.
This hypothesis explains the inconsistencies in Kerry’s record and makes it clear why he acts like a three card Monte dealer in insisting that we watch his time in Nam very carefully and not pay attention to what happened afterward. It is exactly the position Benedict Arnold took with respect to what happened at West Point and afterward.
Proofs? Well, no. Certainly, the official USNR file on Kerry would quickly prove or disprove my thesis. Kerry refuses to sign a Standard Form 180 authorizing the Navy to release it, suggesting that Kerry has much more to lose by showing his records than by continuing to conceal material information. Kennedy? Not likely that his office would say anything that might negatively effect Kerry even though it might be in the nation’s best interest. It is, after all, Kennedy. The US Navy? It is unlikely that the Navy would, of its own volition, risk alienating a sitting US Senator and a man who might be the next CinC. Kerry’s first wife, Julia Thorne, who went to Paris with Kerry when he met with the Viet Cong, and her brother, David H. Thorne, certainly might be able to add facts but, would the old timey, ultra-left wing, liberal media even ask them?
But, there is a another possibility. Many aspects of the Presidential Pardon/Clemency process are matters of public record, in the Department of Justice. If Jimmy Carter pardoned Kerry, there should be a public record that Kerry shouldn’t be able to conceal. An applicant appears to be told in the application process:
"A record of each Certificate of Pardon will be maintained in the Office of the Pardon Attorney as an official record, together with your application form and any other documents compiled in the course of processing your request. The Pardon Attorney may disclose the contents of such files to anyone when the disclosure is required by law or the ends of justice. In particular, public record documents that may be compiled in the course of processing an application, such as the judgment order from the criminal case for which pardon is sought, trial or sentencing transcripts, court opinions, and newspaper articles, are generally made available upon request by third-parties (including representatives of the news media) pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, unless such disclosure could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of the petitioner's personal privacy. In addition, unsolicited Congressional correspondence is treated in the same manner. On the other hand, non-public documents that may be compiled in the course of processing an application, such as the application form itself, are not generally available under the Freedom of Information Act."
The DoJ procedures indicate:
"Publicly available information for which a FOIA request is not required:
Publicly available information: Executive clemency statistics from the administration of President McKinley to the present; rules governing the pardon attorney and petitions for executive clemency published at 28 C.F.R. §§ 0.35-36 and § 1.1 et seq.; forms for applying for executive clemency; publication: Civil Disabilities of Convicted Felons: A State-by-State Survey (October 1996); copies of clemency warrants and proclamations for persons who have been granted executive clemency; description of clemency procedures contained in United States Attorney's Manual at § 1-2.110 et seq.; whether an individual has applied for executive clemency and action on such application."
Thus, I would urge any individual or member of the media with an interest in learning the truth about Kerry’s total military record to contact/visit the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice and inquire whether there are any records for John Forbes Kerry. Check variations of Kerry’s name (intentional misfiling?), things like “John Kerry Forbes.” Kerry’s Social Security Number appears to be shown, unredacted, on a 17 Dec 1970 document in his file but his Military ID number is not known. Finally, don’t limit inquiries to actions under Proclamation 4483, President Carter may have taken some clemency action because key party members may have required him to. Finally, From a reading of the above, it appears that certain information should be available on a “walk in” basis and other information must be requested via FOIA application.
"The offices of record are :
FOIA Contact:
Samuel T. Morison, Attorney Advisor Office of the Pardon Attorney 4th Floor, 500 First Street, N.W. Department of Justice Washington, DC 20530-0001 (202) 616-6070
Conventional Reading Room:
United States Department of Justice Office of the Pardon Attorney 4th Floor, 500 First Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530"
Several observations: It is indeed unfortunate that a man who would be President, so distrusts the American public and his own background that he hides material information in his military records in the hope of hornswoggling the electorate, of tricking us into believing he is one thing when, in fact, he may be another.
Second, the above process should have long ago been followed by the media. It is also unfortunate that most of the traditional media are far too interested in electing Kerry to bother with doing any fact finding or reporting of information that might dissuade the electorate or present the truth.
Proof? Again, no, no proof, but as long as Kerry in his arrogance, refuses to trust Americans, we have the right to make assumptions about his dishonesty, mendacity and refusal to be candid and to assume that he uses similar duplicity with respect to other matters, as well. The above represents my current best guess about why Kerry is being dishonest and what he is hiding.
This will blow up in his face before October 15th."
Ace in the hole for Dubya...just in case?
Kerry has a Discharge on his site, showing 1978,
which is odd enough (since it was supposed to
be 1972, and '78 places it in the Carter Admin).
But where does this 2001 date come from?
*PING* for an interesting Jenjis thread!
JOHN KERRY
CLICK HERE TO SIGN FORM 180
http://www.archives.gov/research_room/vetrecs/index.html
WHAT ARE YOU HIDING?
WHAT IS YOUR SECRET?
WHAT DON'T YOU WANT
AMERICA AND THE PRESS TO KNOW?
BUSH WAS NOT AFRAID TO SIGN FORM 180
BUT HE'S A MAN AND YOU ARE A TRAITOR AND A COWARD!
KERRY'S ONLY POSITION
THAT HE HAS NEVER
FLIP FLOPED ON
TRAITOR THEN
TRAITOR NOW
READ THIS INTERVIEW THAT KERRY GAVE in 1970
KERRY GAVE AID AND COMFORT TO THE VIET CONG
Harvard Crimson : Kerry refused order to destroy Viet Cong village
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185
Published on Wednesday, February 18, 1970
John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress
By SAMUEL Z. GOLDHABER
Crimson Staff Writer
"...One time Kerry was ordered to destroy a Viet Cong village
but disobeyed orders and suggested that the Navy Command
simply send in a Psychological Warfare team to be
friend the villagers with food, hospital supplies,
and better educational facilities."
John F. Kerry
Timeline of a traitor.
Click Here
http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html
*******ALSO*******
C SPAN 9/12/04 :1000's of Vietnam Veterans for the Truth March in DC
(Followed by "protest" with 6 vets for Kerry LOL)
Will Repeat on C SPAN Check Listings
2 hours and 52 minutes of video
rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04091204_bushvets.rm
Copy and Paste in Real Player
I must have missed something. kerry's campaign website has posted an honorable discharge dated Feb 1978. http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Honorable_Discharge_From_Reserve.pdf. Where can I find the discharge dated Mar 2001? I'm not familiar with military documents, so maybe I'm just reading the wrong document. I still think they'd have been better off putting someone with my level of expertise in charge of their Military Document Forgery Department.
(Please FReepmail if you want on, or off, this list. I certainly have no desire to increase anyone’s stress-level. Thanks!!!)
Pardoned by Carter in 1977?
The record is puzzling. Why would Kerry claim hero status and then refuse to allow us to see his record and allow every reader to confirm his claims? Why, even in war time, does Kerry’ service in the USNR appear to stretch from 1966 to 1978, 12 years? How does one explain the strange irregularities (multiple citations for his Silver Star) and inconsistencies in the Kerry military records that are available? Why does the 6 year (plus six month?) USNR obligation begun by Kerry in 2/66 appear to end in 1/70 again, in time of war, even though available records seem to indicate that the terminal date of his reserve obligation was 17 Feb 1972? Why are the documents that should be available, not there? The answers to all these question may be linked and surprisingly obvious. My thesis would be very easy to disprove (if it is false) by simply releasing Kerry’s entire military record.
Even if you include a lot of puffery and self-promotion, Kerry’s in-country record in late 1968 and early 1969 was exceptional and one to be admired and honored. But, for reasons we do not yet understand, in roughly late 1969, Kerry turned bad.
In late 1969, Kerry asked for an early release from “active duty”even though he had re-upped to serve on active duty until August, 1970. He said he wished to enter the democrat party primary, held in September, 1970 in Massachusetts, to be a candidate for Congress for the Third District. He was detached from active duty effective 4:00 PM, 2 January 1970 and specifically reminded the he assumed “... The status of a member of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty.”
The paper trail of available Navy records disappears for almost 8 years. In March, 1970, Kerry drops out of the Congressional primary in favor of the notorious Father Drinan, Dean of Boston College Law School (where Kerry later attended law school, 1973-1976). From early, 1970 through the Summer of 1973, Kerry takes part in activities involving war protests, meeting in Paris with Viet Cong representatives and the leadership of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. These activities, some of which may have been legal, were of very questionable patriotism for an honest citizen of the US but certainly inappropriate for a US Naval officer.
That’s pretty much fact. Now, the thesis that explains the rest of the mysteries. I believe that Kerry was court martialed in the early 70s or otherwise terminated from the USNR under conditions other than honorable. Whatever actually happened represented a stain on Kerry’s record that might not have been taken lightly even by voters in Massachusetts.
Then, on January 21,1977, Democrat President Jimmy Carter (POTUS - January 20,1977 - January 20,1981) gave a blanket pardon, in Proclamation 4483, to certain offenders as follows:
“Acting pursuant to the grant of authority in Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution of the United States, I, Jimmy Carter, President of the United States, do hereby grant a full, complete and unconditional pardon to: (1) all persons who may have committed any offense between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder; and (2) all persons heretofore convicted, irrespective of the date of conviction, of any offense committed between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act, or any rule or regulation promulgated thereunder, restoring to them full political, civil and other rights.”
Thus, if my thesis is correct, Kerry’s offense must have occurred between 2 January 1970 and March 28, 1973. My thesis suggests that during 1977, Kerry made application for full pardon under the administrative procedures promulgated by the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice. He almost certainly sought and received the support of Massachusetts Senator Kennedy who had much clout in the Carter administration. Kennedy may have been responsible for suggesting that the records of such a fine young man be embellished by Citations from the Secretary of the Navy, rather than a mere admiral, and in other details not yet known.
In my hypothesis, Kerry’s request for full pardon was granted. Kerry applied for his military records to be corrected accordingly, and applied for an honorable discharge. The Secretary of the Navy wrote to Kerry on Feb 16 1978, enclosing an Honorable Discharge Certificate and stating:
“This action is taken in accordance with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened ... to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty and determine whether they should be retained on the rolls of the Reserve Component or separated from the naval service pursuant to Secretarial instructions promulgated in reference [c].”
The reference, “[c],”is to “BUPERSMAN 3830300.” A Google search did not provide any information regarding the text of this provision. But, this might explain why he was discharged 12 long years after enlistment.
This hypothesis explains the inconsistencies in Kerry’s record and makes it clear why he acts like a three card Monte dealer in insisting that we watch his time in Nam very carefully and not pay attention to what happened afterward. It is exactly the position Benedict Arnold took with respect to what happened at West Point and afterward.
Proofs? Well, no. Certainly, the official USNR file on Kerry would quickly prove or disprove my thesis. Kerry refuses to sign a Standard Form 180 authorizing the Navy to release it, suggesting that Kerry has much more to lose by showing his records than by continuing to conceal material information. Kennedy? Not likely that his office would say anything that might negatively effect Kerry even though it might be in the nation’s best interest. It is, after all, Kennedy. The US Navy? It is unlikely that the Navy would, of its own volition, risk alienating a sitting US Senator and a man who might be the next CinC. Kerry’s first wife, Julia Thorne, who went to Paris with Kerry when he met with the Viet Cong, and her brother, David H. Thorne, certainly might be able to add facts but, would the old timey, ultra-left wing, liberal media even ask them?
But, there is a another possibility. Many aspects of the Presidential Pardon/Clemency process are matters of public record, in the Department of Justice. If Jimmy Carter pardoned Kerry, there should be a public record that Kerry shouldn’t be able to conceal. An applicant appears to be told in the application process:
"A record of each Certificate of Pardon will be maintained in the Office of the Pardon Attorney as an official record, together with your application form and any other documents compiled in the course of processing your request. The Pardon Attorney may disclose the contents of such files to anyone when the disclosure is required by law or the ends of justice. In particular, public record documents that may be compiled in the course of processing an application, such as the judgment order from the criminal case for which pardon is sought, trial or sentencing transcripts, court opinions, and newspaper articles, are generally made available upon request by third-parties (including representatives of the news media) pursuant to the Freedom of Information Act, unless such disclosure could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of the petitioner's personal privacy. In addition, unsolicited Congressional correspondence is treated in the same manner. On the other hand, non-public documents that may be compiled in the course of processing an application, such as the application form itself, are not generally available under the Freedom of Information Act."
The DoJ procedures indicate:
"Publicly available information for which a FOIA request is not required:
Publicly available information: Executive clemency statistics from the administration of President McKinley to the present; rules governing the pardon attorney and petitions for executive clemency published at 28 C.F.R. §§ 0.35-36 and § 1.1 et seq.; forms for applying for executive clemency; publication: Civil Disabilities of Convicted Felons: A State-by-State Survey (October 1996); copies of clemency warrants and proclamations for persons who have been granted executive clemency; description of clemency procedures contained in United States Attorney's Manual at § 1-2.110 et seq.; whether an individual has applied for executive clemency and action on such application."
Thus, I would urge any individual or member of the media with an interest in learning the truth about Kerry’s total military record to contact/visit the Office of the Pardon Attorney, Department of Justice and inquire whether there are any records for John Forbes Kerry. Check variations of Kerry’s name (intentional misfiling?), things like “John Kerry Forbes.” Kerry’s Social Security Number appears to be shown, unredacted, on a 17 Dec 1970 document in his file but his Military ID number is not known. Finally, don’t limit inquiries to actions under Proclamation 4483, President Carter may have taken some clemency action because key party members may have required him to. Finally, From a reading of the above, it appears that certain information should be available on a “walk in” basis and other information must be requested via FOIA application.
"The offices of record are :
FOIA Contact:
Samuel T. Morison, Attorney Advisor Office of the Pardon Attorney 4th Floor, 500 First Street, N.W. Department of Justice Washington, DC 20530-0001 (202) 616-6070
Conventional Reading Room:
United States Department of Justice Office of the Pardon Attorney 4th Floor, 500 First Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20530"
Several observations: It is indeed unfortunate that a man who would be President, so distrusts the American public and his own background that he hides material information in his military records in the hope of hornswoggling the electorate, of tricking us into believing he is one thing when, in fact, he may be another. Second, the above process should have long ago been followed by the media. It is also unfortunate that most of the traditional media are far too interested in electing Kerry to bother with doing any fact finding or reporting of information that might dissuade the electorate or present the truth.
Proof? Again, no, no proof, but as long as Kerry in his arrogance, refuses to trust Americans, we have the right to make assumptions about his dishonesty, mendacity and refusal to be candid and to assume that he uses similar duplicity with respect to other matters, as well. The above represents my current best guess about why Kerry is being dishonest and what he is hiding.