Don't spin the Civil War

Washington Post ^ | 12.27.10 | E.J. DIONNE jR.

[trumandogz]

The Civil War is about to loom very large in the popular memory. We would do well to be candid about its causes and not allow the distortions of contemporary politics or long-standing myths to cloud our understanding of why the nation fell apart.

The coming year will mark the 150th anniversary of the onset of the conflict, which is usually dated to April 12, 1861, when Confederate batteries opened fire at 4:30 a.m. on federal troops occupying Fort Sumter. Union forces surrendered the next day, after 34 hours of shelling.

[mojitojoe]

Spare me the preachiness. JR runs his forum as he sees fit, and he alone makes those decisions, not you.
__________________
LOL, ooh hit a sore spot did I? You need to take reading comp 101. Go back, slowly read my 2 sentence post. I SAID JR ZOTTED HIM, NOWHERE DID I SAY I RUN FR OR ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE THAT. I SAID HE GOT CAUGHT, FINALLY. Did you see how many FReepers were celebrating the demise of one of FR’s oldest liberal/progressive/hateful trolls?

[mojitojoe]

Oh I’m very familiar with NS’s past posts. I hadn’t been on FR for a week when I was told he was a troll and had past posts and links to past posts sent to me via FReepmail. All the way back to 2001. Pro abortion, pro homo, pro muslim, pro big goverment, anti states rights, I could go on and on.
Just for posterity, here is a list:

NONSEQUITUR HATES:
SARAH PALIN
MICHELE BACHMANN
RUSH LIMBAUGH
GLENN BECK
ANN COULTER
SEAN HANNITY
THE SOUTH
SOUTHERNERS
BAPTISTS
TEXAS
FOX NEWS
BOTH BUSH PRESIDENTS
CHENEY
LYNDON JOHNSON(BECAUSE HE’S FROM TEXAS)
THE ARMY AND ANYONE IN THE ARMY
MARINES
ANYONE THAT BRINGS UP NATURAL BORN CITIZEN OR THE BIRTH CERTRIFICATE
ANTI-WAR(IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN)
HUCKABEE
ISRAEL
DADT

NONSEQUITUR LOVES:
JON STEWART
REPEAL OF DADT
PRO-HOMO MARRIAGE
PRO CHOICE
ISLAM- HE LIKES TO TELL US HOW MUCH THEY HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE WORLD
THE KORAN
EVOLUTION
BILL MAHR
SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER

[mojitojoe]

I have the courage to fix what is wrong with the country I love.
__________________________

Then tell all those damn Yankees that liberalism is a mental disorder. You can start there since THEY are the ones destroying this country.

[trumandogz]

“Please take a break from posting and commenting on Southern Independence threads.”

I’m actually the one who posted the thread and now you are telling me not to comment on the thread?

Why is that?

Why can’t a person who has spent most of my live in the South, not comment on a thread regarding the South’s actions to maintain slavery during the 1860’s?

[rockrr]

Thanks for the comments. They don’t go unnoticed (although apparently unappreciated by at least one person here). Conservatives ought to be able to disagree without resorting to “troll” this and “retread” that.

[trumandogz]

“Show me where Southerners committed genocide.”

Where did I say that that the Southerners committed genocide.

[trumandogz]

“Show me where Southerners committed genocide.”

Where did I say that that the Southerners committed genocide.

[trumandogz]

“So, I take it that any people that ever held slaves are to be condemned forever?”

I cannot forgive the Nazis for holding people slavery and I cannot forgive the Confederates for holding people in slavery.

[EyeGuy]

“I cannot forgive the Confederates for holding people in slavery”

####

The overwhelmingly vast majority of “Confederates” never held slaves, and were not fighting for the continuation of the institution of slavery.

[RegulatorCountry]

I’m grateful for the presence of FR, one of the few places wherein a Constitutional conservative point of view is not just allowed but aggressively advocated. There is too little of this in the world today.

Speaking only for myself, I’m not going to seek to shut down all opposition, though. On the right, we have a political alliance, a coalition of people who don’t agree on all points, in order to create a sufficient voting bloc to win national elections. I’d describe myself as a pro-business social conservative with a libertarian streak. Those three qualities are present to greater or lesser degree in just about every person deeming themselves conservative.

There are others who are social conservative to the exclusion of all else, even to the point of supporting big government types like Huckabee. There are still others who are pro-business to the point of advocating treaties that are distinctly disadvantageous to working class citizens of this country. There are others still, who are so libertarian as to oppose government efforts to limit abortion or efforts to prevent homosexuals from openly serving in the military.

And, there are combinations of all the above, much as I am. Social conservatism is my first priority but not my only priority. Others have business or personal freedom as they understand it, as their first priority. They’re all needed to win elections.

So, I don’t mind being confronted with the possibility of disagreement and debate, even within my own “camp.” I actually relish the opportunity to argue forcefully for my point of view. Limits do need to be set on opposing points of view in order to maintain the very nature of FR. And, JR does that as he sees fit, and fairly effectively over time as the endurance and influence of FR demonstrates.

Do I always agree? No, but again it’s not my call, and I support the site owner’s right to do it, with good cheer. Nor is it your call. You appear to relish not forcefully arguing in favor of something, but arguing in the negative and creating an echo chamber. None of us will be served in the long term by such behavior.

Surrounding oneself with nothing but yes men leads to isolation and confusion. You don’t appear to even understand that, let alone appreciate it.

[trumandogz]

Great post.

However, the quote the attributed to me was not mine.

[mojitojoe]

mstar is so kind, shame on anyone that is rude to her. Always a lady.

[trumandogz]

I have not commented on anything that Lincoln said during his debates with Douglas.

However, President Lincoln did issue the Emancipation Proclamation and President Davis elected NOT issue such a proclamation.

[Bigun]

St. George Tucker was one of the most influential jurists and legal scholars in the United States late in the 1700s and early in the 1800s. Tucker served as judge on three different courts in Virginia: the General Court (1788–1804), the Virginia Court of Appeals (1804–1811), and the federal district court for the eastern district of Virginia (1813–1825). In addition to his work as a jurist, Tucker was an important legal scholar and educator. From 1788 until 1804, between court terms, Tucker taught law at the College of William and Mary. Perhaps Tucker's most significant contribution was his 1803 publication of a five-volume edition Commentaries on the Laws of England by William Blackstone. Tucker's "American Blackstone," the first major treatise on American law, helped shape a generation of lawyers and judges.

President James Madison appointed him to the federal district court in 1813.

I very much doubt that President Madison would appoint to such a lofty post someone with whom he disagreed.

[rustbucket]

Interesting that you post the excerpts from how the newspapers of the day spun Lincoln's speech rather then quoting Lincoln's actual words.

Lincoln's speech is widely available. In fact, I posted a link to it in my post number 1 on that thread. The newspaper excerpts are not widely available, and that is why I posted them. People are free to make their own comparisons.

What you read as "poking the South in the eye with a stick", I read as a reasonable prescription to avoid war.

Then you agree with the Republican papers whose excerpts I posted. Fair enough. I don't. I've characterized Lincoln's speech as being like a demand that he wants to sleep with your wife, and if you acquiesce to this, there won't be any trouble. And if there is trouble about it, you will be the aggressor.

Southern newspapers did not see it your way. They believed they had the right to secede under the Constitution and that Lincoln had no right after they seceded to collect tariffs on imports coming into Southern ports or to turn the South into an occupied territory with Federal troops occupying forts throughout the South.

The Southern newspapers and the Democrat newspapers of the North were correct that Lincoln's speech meant war. Lincoln's actions afterward confirm that. Republican newspapers interpreting the speech as meaning peace were seeing the speech through rose colored glasses.

Secession was not prohibited in the Constitution. The power to prohibit secession was not delegated to the federal government or to other states that might oppose the secession of a given state. Secession remained in the powers reserved to the states or the people. Had it been otherwise and states couldn't secede, the Constitution wouldn't have been ratified, IMO. Here is what Madison had to say about reserved powers at his ratification convention:

That resolution declares that the powers granted by the proposed Constitution are the gift of the people, and may be resumed by them when perverted to their oppression, and every power not granted thereby remains with the people, and at their will. It adds, likewise, that no right, of any denomination, can be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by the general government, or any of its officers, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for these purposes. There cannot be a more positive and unequivocal declaration of the principle of the adoption — that every thing not granted is reserved. This is obviously and self-evidently the case, without the declaration.

Here is what one state had to say about it [my bold below]:

Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788.

WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected and Met in Convention, having maturely considered the Constitution for the United States of America, agreed to on the seventeenth day of September, in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty seven, by the Convention then assembled at Philadelphia in the Common-wealth of Pennsylvania (a Copy whereof precedes these presents) and having also seriously and deliberately considered the present situation of the United States, Do declare and make known. ...

That the Powers of Government may be reassumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness; ...

... Under these impressions and declaring that the rights aforesaid cannot be abridged or violated, and that the Explanations aforesaid are consistent with the said Constitution ... We the said Delegates, in the Name and in the behalf of the People of the State of New York Do by these presents Assent to and Ratify the said Constitution.

Were Hamilton and Jay (coauthors of the Federalist Papers with Madison) wrong? They voted for this ratification document which passed 30 to 27 with about 8 Anti-Federalists abstaining.

[lentulusgracchus]

Without any sort of official sanction at either the state or the national level then did it really exist?

Tree .... forest .... sound ..... the old epistemological razzle-dazzle. Did the James Gang exist? The New Orleans Greys, who fought and died at the Alamo?

Short answer, yes.

[matt1234]

Your own posts notes that the unit was never accepted for duty with the Confederate military or the Louisiana militia, wasn't supported in any way with arms or equipment, and was generally ignored. That's hardly a ringing endorsement of black service in the Confederacy.

My purpose was not to provide "a ringing endorsement." It was to disprove mac_truck's statement that "they were NOT soldiers anymore than they were free." They were soldiers, and they were free. And they supported the Confederacy, at least for a time.

[central_va]

Surrounding oneself with nothing but yes men leads to isolation and confusion. You don’t appear to even understand that, let alone appreciate it.

Having your ancestors called Nazi's and then personally being called a Klansman is a little beyond receiving an "opposing" viewpoint.

[goat granny]

Nope,

[Repeal The 17th]

“I predict 500 replies.”
-
We’re getting close!