Probing Question: What happened before the Big Bang?

The question of what happened before the Big Bang long has frustrated cosmologists, both amateur and professional.

Though Einstein's theory of general relativity does an excellent job of describing the universe almost back to its beginning, near the Big Bang matter becomes so dense that relativity breaks down, says Penn State physicist Abhay Ashtekar. "Beyond that point, we need to apply quantum tools that were not available to Einstein."

Now Ashtekar and two of his post-doctoral researchers, Tomasz Pawlowski and Parmpreet Singh, have done just that. Using a theory called loop quantum gravity, they have developed a mathematical model that skates right up to the Big Bang -- and steps through it. On the other side, Ashtekar says, exists another universe with space-time geometry similar to our own, except that instead of expanding, it is shrinking. "In place of a classical Big Bang, there is in fact a quantum Bounce," he says.

Loop quantum gravity, one of the leading approaches to the unification of general relativity with quantum physics, was pioneered at the Institute of Gravitational Physics and Geometry at Penn State, which Ashtekar directs. The theory posits that space-time geometry itself has a discrete "atomic" structure, Ashtekar explains. Instead of the familiar space-time continuum, the fabric of space is made up of one-dimensional quantum threads. Near the Big Bang, this fabric is violently torn, and these quantum properties cause gravity to become repulsive, rather than attractive.

While the idea of another universe existing prior to the Big Bang has been proposed before, he adds, this is the first mathematical description that systematically establishes its existence and deduces its space-time geometry.

"Our initial work assumes a homogenous model of our universe," Ashtekar acknowledges. "However, it has given us confidence in the underlying ideas of loop quantum gravity. We will continue to refine the model to better portray the universe as we know it and to better understand the features of quantum gravity."

Abhay Ashtekar is holder of the Eberly family chair in physics and director of the Institute for Gravitational Physics and Geometry in the Eberly College of Science. He can be reached at ava1@psu.edu.

The finding reported above was published in Physical Review Letters in May 2006. The research was sponsored by the National Science Foundation, Alexander von Humboldt Foundation, and the Penn State Eberly College of Science.

It's obvious to anyone following this thread that you are incapable of actually debating a subject...

No, Luis, I have stated from the beginnings that I am a primitivist, that believes in a Living God, who CREATED all that you are OBSERVING in this universe.

But, you seem to think that we lack sufficient intelligence to see how smart you are. Gosh, you coulda fooled me.

Life is too short, Luis, and you have no interest in hearing anything I say. so why do you persist in making yourself appear foolish, with such childish grabs for attention?

You haven't posed a single serious question, Luis.

Didn't your mother love you , Luis? Have you stopped beating your wife?

You're worth some amusement, anyways...

Probing Question: What happened before the Big Bang?

Well, you see, God was sitting there in his favorite spot south of the South Pole, singing "Jeremiah Was A Bullfrog" to himself and clapping his accompaniment with one hand while trying to move an immovable rock with the other. Then, suddenly, he said to himself: "Myself, I'm bored. Nothing new ever happens around here. Or rather, everything happens, all at once. I think I'll invent time to stretch things out. Now I think I'll invent some kind of universe to entertain me - one that is capabile of surprising me..."

The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history.
Robert A. Heinlein, Time Enough for Love, 1973

He also insulted people He disagreed with, right?

A few places...

Matthew 23

12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

My goodness! You can quote Scripture! It does make a pretty convenient substitute for thinking, doesn't it?

Your conclusion seems to be in error.

NIV Philippians 4:8
Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

NIV 2 Peter 3:1
Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.

NIV Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

NIV Matthew 18:12-13
12. "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?
13. And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off.

NIV Matthew 21:28-31
28. "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, `Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'
29. "`I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.
30. "Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, `I will, sir,' but he did not go.
31. "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.

NIV Matthew 22:42
"What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied.

NIV Mark 2:5-7
5. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
6. Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7. "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

NIV Acts 5:3-5
3. Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land?
4. Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."
5. When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.

NIV Acts 11:16-17
16. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
17. So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

NIV Acts 17:29-30
29. "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill.
30. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

NIV Acts 25:27
For I think it is unreasonable to send on a prisoner without specifying the charges against him."

NIV Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

NIV Romans 1:28
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

NIV Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:18
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise.

NIV 1 Corinthians 8:2
The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:20
Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

NIV Galatians 6:3
If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.

NIV Ephesians 4:17
So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.

No Big Bang means that all of creation is not the result of some unexplained mass going critcal and magically evolving into all of the complexity and wonder we see around us.

No, it means that this universe is a result of something much more grand. It is the result of a God who can step outside the Universe, design the rules, and make it all happen.

Alledgedly with no plan or higher purpose.

Please link where this is alleged (or alledged). Because Science is silent on God, it doesn't mean it doesn't believe in God. It is just that God' purpose is not part of the scientific review. Science doesn't insinuate itself onto theology. Why does theology think it is qualified to insinuate itself into science?

The "Big Bang" is simply a charade to give the godless a point of departure.

For the theological tinfoil hats, perhaps. The "Big Bang" is a theory of the origins of the Universe, based on observed evidence. Or do you disbelieve the red shift and other scientific observations that point at a single-point start?

The fact you have commented on this suggests to me you are well-read in the Big Bang Theory, including its corollary theorem, such as the Expanding Universe, the nature of time and how it changes under pressure, etc. Right?

I mean, there is no way someone would post on this extremely complex subject without having at least a passing knowledge of what they are posting about.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Simple!

"Let there be...."

Huh?