Bush will win on Immigration to save the Republican Party.

[Pukin Dog]

Just a little dose of reality for some of you going nuts over the Immigration issue, because there is NO chance that you will win on the border enforcement issue. No chance whatsoever. Only after a migrant worker program passes, making most of these illegal aliens legal, is there any chance at all to have meaningful border enforcement.

Bush is not running for office anymore, but the Republican Congress is in need of a big victory in November. This issue will kill our chances to maintain the majority, and knowing that, Bush will likely veto any bill making illegal immigration a felony, if that bill does not include the migrant worker program (call it amnesty if you want) needed to hold onto Business and Hispanic support for the Republican Party.

The Illegal Immigration Genie is out of the bottle, folks. You can’t stuff her back in without losing the House and/or Senate in November. Pragmatic minds will rule in the end, and that is a bitter pill you best swallow now.

FReepers can’t will elections for the Republican Party, but we sure can go a long way towards losing them, if we can’t put our common sense ahead of our passions on this issue. I live in San Diego County, and I see the problems with illegal immigration on a daily basis.

Whether you like it or not, much of the commerce of this country does depend on these folks to do jobs that Americans won’t do for the prevailing wage.

So, you have a choice, you can demand the border enforcement bills on their own, or you can swallow hard and consider everything you will lose if we turn off 10-15% of the electorate, in addition to the business community that depends on these workers. Yeah, they broke the law, and so do the people who hire them.

So what?

Yeah, I said it, SO WHAT? The time to be worried about that was when there were REAL Republican majorities in the Border States. It is too late now. This is a problem that cannot be solved, but only managed.

It is possible to be right and stupid at the same time. Pete Wilson tried this a few years ago, got all kinds of support for it. It passed, and Pete Wilson is gone. Then a judge overturned it anyway. That is exactly what you can expect to happen with these current bills as well. Some judge will put an injunction on enforcement, but by the time that happens, we will be knee-deep into impeachment proceeding under a Democrat Congress.

Bush won’t let that happen, neither will smarter members of the Senate and House. You won’t win, you can’t win, but you can shoot yourself and the Republican party in the head (even if you are not a member) by pursuing a program that does not include amnesty or whatever you want to call it.

We lost this one.

Get over it. There are bigger battles ahead.

[zook]

Thanks. I knew that eventually the adults would show up on this thread.

[XJarhead]

The steam coming out of their ears crowd are the ones most likely to be responsible for killing any reasonable shot at immigration reform. They won't settle for anything other than a full loaf, and the lefties will settle for nothing more than no loaf at all. Guess who wins if we dig in our heels and refuse any compromise?

As someone else said, anyone who truly believes we're going to round up by force more than 12 million people and ship them out is living in a dream. That is never going to happen.

Never. Anyone who believes otherwise is politically tone deaf.

Here's what you do: the very first thing -- the goal that trumps all others -- is to secure that southern border. Probably with a fence. By stopping future illegal immigration, we've already won 75% of the battle. Plus, politically, its a big winner. The Dems played the security card on the ports. Well, how do they counter the security card played on an open southern border? They can't. People support that concept both for reasons of national security and to stop illegal economic immigration. We push that, and we get most of what we must have on immigration, and gain politically besides.

After that bill is passed and funded, we then address the immigrants who still live here. Now this is the part that's politically going to be the toughest, which is why we only hit it after we get security on the border.

That's when you set up some type of guest worker program for those who remain here. It requires legal registration, and has strict requirements for English literacy and civics. You can't pass the English test within 2 years, you're gone. Maybe some exceptions for family members if others have passed. But the point is that you don't let them remain a segregated, isolated part of the community. Either they integrate liguistically and civically, or they get bounced.

It's going to take something like that, including guest worker provisions, to address the problem of those illegals already here. Because just trying to boot them out will never make it past Congress, and certainly not past a Dem filibuster.

[Protagoras]

It's quite possible the new law won't be enforced, but it's better to try and fail, then to never have tried at all.

That is what the existing laws did, tried. You haven't explained why you think a ADDITIONAL law would be any more effective than current law.

I have never argued for the nonsensical amnesty.

You want to fix the problem with a guest worker program? Try this; a guest worker program that is liberal but would exclude permanently any person caught here illegally.

But the real answer is to get Mexico to stop the problem on their side of the border. But then you don't get to shoot your guns or intimidate people do you? Heck, that's no fun.

Democrats and Republicans,,,,hooked on violence.

[Marine Inspector]

You want to fix the problem with a guest worker program?

Sorry, a guest worker program won't fix the problem, it will only make it worst.

But the real answer is to get Mexico to stop the problem on their side of the border.

That would be nice, but it won't happen.

But then you don't get to shoot your guns or intimidate people do you?

????

[Protagoras]

Sorry, a guest worker program won't fix the problem, it will only make it worst.

Thank you for the opinion backed up by nothing. It will be given the proper amount of consideration.

????

I must conclude from your confusion that you think like liberals that the laws that you propose are merely suggestions not backed up by men pointing guns or the threat thereof.

Complain about non-enforcement then pretend there is no violence involved in enforcement. Who knew?

[Marine Inspector]

Funny, I've been enforcing the law for 8 years and never pointed a gun at anyone.

[Protagoras]

Funny, I've been enforcing the law for 8 years

That would be funny if not so frightening.

and never pointed a gun at anyone.

And you dont carry one or think there is a threat implicit?

Democrats and Republicans,,,hooked on violence.

"I never pulled a gun on anyone so laws are just suggestions".

[Marine Inspector]

Yes, I carry a weapon.

The weapon is not a implicit threat. Jail is the threat.

Most people don't speed because they don't want to get a ticket, not because they don't want to get shot.

Do you pay taxes because you afraid of getting shot, or because your afraid of being audited and fined or jailed?

[Protagoras]

The weapon is not a implicit threat.

You are delusional.

Jail is the threat.

I'm not going. Screw you. I don't need to pay attention to you. Oh,,you have a gun? What if I resist?

Do you pay taxes because you afraid of getting shot, or because your afraid of being audited and fined or jailed?

All of the above. If I don't pay and don't obey and try to defend my property, what happens?

Are you purposely obtuse? Or just naturally so?

[maine-iac7]

Once the Republicans have finished giving up every principle, just to save their precious "party," how will they be any different than their opposition? At that point it simply becomes a matter of which football team you like or what color shirt you wear.

If you think there is only one battle going on.

I am far from unconcerned about illegals - but I am more concerned about people ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We have the socialists who have, over the past 30-40 yrs successfully infiltrating and taking over the Dems - They know if they don't get back in control NOW - all may well be for not. They are hate/fear driven.

They are also in league with the UN - and intend to put this country under it.

The UN has all their ducks in a row - papers/plans drawn and ready to: Take our sovereignty away, put our military under their control (One world Gov't) institute total gun control, every child born will be registered with them in the hour of their birth, control and tax the Internet...The end of our democracy, our Constitution, our freedom, not only of the Internet, but literally.

That would be catastrophic enough but - the unholy hoards who are intent on bringing back the Caliphate will be able to move on all us 'Infidels" across the world with impunity...until it is far too late. (That is, unless you are confident that the UN will step right up to the plate in time - like they are known (NOT) to do.

And why do you think this illegal issue is now taking up all the air time? The dems are masters - with their comrades of the MSM - of diversion.

The illegals problem is hardly new - important to solve,yes, but will not be solved overnight.

IN the meantime, the translations and discoveries coming to light in the documents that are getting translated is off on the back burner somewhere - until it wont be a story anymore and it wont make any difference WHAT is discovered.

We can't be a one issue party - we can't scream that if Bush doesn't do exactly as we demand (and there are several different 'demands' on the solutions, so he can hardly comply with them all - ) we can't say to h*ll with him, let the destroyers take over.

The enemy is outflanking us with diversionary strategy - the most used tool in their arsenal. You'd think we could recognize this by now. So do we wont to win an immediate battle today and let them win the war, or do take off the blinders and stick together?

"US: Together we stand or we fall apart." m.t.

[maine-iac7]

The steam coming out of their ears crowd are the ones most likely to be responsible for killing any reasonable shot at immigration reform. They won't settle for anything other than a full loaf, and the lefties will settle for nothing more than no loaf at all. Guess who wins if we dig in our heels and refuse any compromise?

this is what frightens me even more than the whole illegals problem,

I am far from unconcerned about illegals - but I am more concerned about people ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We have the socialists who have, over the past 30-40 yrs successfully infiltrating and taking over the Dems - They know if they don't get back in control NOW - all may well be for not. They are hate/fear driven.

They are also in league with the UN - and intend to put this country under it.

The UN has all their ducks in a row - papers/plans drawn and ready to: Take our sovereignty away, put our military under their control (One world Gov't) institute total gun control, every child born will be registered with them in the hour of their birth, control and tax the Internet...The end of our democracy, our Constitution, our freedom, not only of the Internet, but literally.

That would be catastrophic enough but - the unholy hoards who are intent on bringing back the Caliphate will be able to move on all us 'Infidels" across the world with impunity...until it is far too late. (That is, unless you are confident that the UN will step right up to the plate in time - like they are known (NOT) to do.

And why do you think this illegal issue is now taking up all the air time? The dems are masters - with their comrades of the MSM - of diversion.

The illegals problem is hardly new - important to solve,yes, but will not be solved overnight.

IN the meantime, the translations and discoveries coming to light in the documents that are getting translated is off on the back burner somewhere - until it wont be a story anymore and it wont make any difference WHAT is discovered.

We can't be a one issue party - we can't scream that if Bush doesn't do exactly as we demand (and there are several different 'demands' on the solutions, so he can hardly comply with them all - ) we can't say to h*ll with him, let the destroyers take over.

The enemy is outflanking us with diversionary strategy - the most used tool in their arsenal. You'd think we could recognize this by now. So do we wont to win an immediate battle today and let them win the war, or do take off the blinders and stick together?

"US: Together we stand or we fall apart." m.t.

[XJarhead]

It is a classic tactic of the Democrats to paint Republicans as extremists, and so gain a majority on a particular issue. The way to beat them is to stay logical and reasoned, and not let ourselves be demonized. Beat them at their own game by leading with the arguments they can't counter, like border security. Hell, they got everyone all fired up about the ports, so jam it right back down their throats by saying it does no good to secure our ports when people can just walk right over the border.

On THAT issue, we definitely have a majority, and most conservatives and Republicans will stand together. Along with most of the "moderates". To the extent we do have disagreements, let's wait until we've first taken care of the issues on which we agree. Division helps nobody but the other side.

As bad as some here dislike the Senate Bill -- and I don't like it either -- its worthwhile noting that while Republicans split on it, every Dem voted in favor. Taking vengeance on the party that splits to benefit the party that goes unanimously the other way is nonsensical.

[NCSteve]

We have the socialists who have, over the past 30-40 yrs successfully infiltrating and taking over the Dems...

I hate to be the one to break this to you at this late date, but the socialists have pretty successfully infiltrated the Republicans as well. In case you didn't notice, this Republican President and Republican Congress are spending and expanding the government in ways that make Roosevelt and LBJ look like ardent libertarians.

And how have they infiltrated the GOP? Glad you asked. They have managed it because Republicans gave up stand after stand, principle after principle, just to gain and hold power. So there was little point for them to stand on principle in the first place since they gave it all up just to be in charge. Unfortunately, the end result shows it.

In any case, all this is pretty pointless speculation. All of the GOP true believers will advocate knuckling under so as not to give the Democrats an edge. What edge that is and how their having that edge would be of any benefit is unclear. Mostly it just comes down to partisan pushing and shoving. But the American people are about to teach the GOP an important lesson in standing by your principles. When the Congress knee-jerks and bends over on immigration, Americans will send them home in droves this fall.

Will the GOP learn from this lesson? Will they figure out that giving ground and generally acting from a stance of pathetic weakness is what gets them tossed out of office every time? Will they discover that triangulation and Machiavellianism are distasteful to everyone but liberals? Only time will tell, but history doesn't offer a promising outlook.

[Drago]

I also want to be right.

[Godebert]

"Get over it. There are bigger battles ahead."

NEVER!

If the GOP passes this amnesty crap they are finished forever.

[Travis McGee]

Montebello High School, LA, March 27.

[Old_Time_Religion]

Hey, the guy has a kid on his shoulders with mexican flags.

Look, El Presidente was right! FAMILY VALUES!!!

Let's start promoting U.S. Family Values shall we? And let's start by teachign our children some respect for the law by teaching illegal aliens some respect for the law. Every one is a criminal.

[Travis McGee]

Yeah, Mexican family values. Oh joy.