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Intelligent Design case decided - Dover, Pennsylvania, School Board loses [Fox News Alert]
Fox News | 12/20/05

Posted on 12/20/2005 7:54:38 AM PST by snarks_when_bored

Fox News alert a few minutes ago says the Dover School Board lost their bid to have Intelligent Design introduced into high school biology classes. The federal judge ruled that their case was based on the premise that Darwin's Theory of Evolution was incompatible with religion, and that this premise is false.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: biology; creation; crevolist; dover; education; evolution; intelligentdesign; keywordpolice; ruling; scienceeducation
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To: MineralMan
Belief is irrelevant.

I think you have finally hit on something useful.

Your non belief is also irrelevant.

1,741 posted on 12/21/2005 7:36:08 AM PST by Protagoras (Many people teach their children that Jesus is story character but Santa Claus is real.)
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To: highball

"Hey, if you call it the Egon Spengler "Molds, Spores and Fungus" ping list, count me in! ;-)"

Hah! Now it's four, just in this thread. We'd have to put a disclaimer on the ping list, though: "This is an extremely low-volume ping list. Don't join it if you actually expect to be pinged."


1,742 posted on 12/21/2005 7:36:20 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: jwalsh07
Wiat until you read the 11th Circuits holding. Make sure you tie your head together in three planes before you do.

I personally have no problem with the Georgia stickers. I remember a similar effort from my high school days.

Immediately after the Cuban revolution my state mandated a course in Americanism vs Communism. I was going to a military prep school at the time. We weren't exactly sympathetic to Castro, particularly since he was arresting and killing relatives of some students.

But the mandated course had the opposite of the intended effect. I think students automatically tend to reject government mandated content. The source and purpose of the Georgia stickers will simply split the students into factions.

So if the stickers go, that's fine with me; if they return, I am not concerned. Most students will treat them as a joke.

1,743 posted on 12/21/2005 7:40:10 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Protagoras

"Your non belief is also irrelevant."

So it is, at least when it comes to scientific theories. They are, you see, independent of beliefs. An atheist, a Hindu, and a Christian, will come to the same conclusions in science, based on the evidence presented.

Of course, those who have no science education may believe whatever they wish. It's irrelevant to the truth of the matter.

I would not have a school board, none of the members of which have any advanced science training, dictate the curriculum of science classes. That, my friend, was the case in the Dover situation. Not a single school board member had any serious education in any of the sciences past the secondary level.

Science curriculum decisions are one of those areas where religious beliefs are irrelevant. Sorry, but there it is.


1,744 posted on 12/21/2005 7:40:51 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: whattajoke
Tricky punctuation, caffe. So, one can assume the "Harvard graduate" isn't necessarily a scientist. And if he/she is, how do I put this politely... SO WHAT?

I think we can safely classify "Harvard" as one of those words, like science, that changes meaning with context. Ninety-nine percent of the time when a FReeper uses the word Harvard, it's a pejorative. But when a creationist has a Harvard relative, it's suddenly the cream of the crop. Maybe he/she even took Gould's course.

1,745 posted on 12/21/2005 7:45:12 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: caffe
I know it was faked but there are so many fakes, I can't keep them all straight. Perhaps some ambitious person, could post a list.

Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart... Hmmm. Reminds me.

Jimmy Swaggart telephoned Jim Bakker.

Swaggart: I have a theological question: Can a prostitute be saved?

Bakker: Yes.

Swaggart: Would you save me one for Saturday night?

Short Jokes.
1,746 posted on 12/21/2005 7:45:29 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: PatrickHenry

perjurious placemarker


1,747 posted on 12/21/2005 7:46:27 AM PST by longshadow
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To: MineralMan
I guess you have me confused with someone who tried to make a case for ID being taught in a government facility.

You often seem confused.

A guy who prays to no one, for things that he doesn't believe can happen, in front of others who also don't believe, after basing his whole identity on his non belief,,,is a very confused person.

1,748 posted on 12/21/2005 7:48:13 AM PST by Protagoras (Many people teach their children that Jesus is story character but Santa Claus is real.)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Luckily I never said that science is the only way to knowledge or that science constitutes the only valid knowledge.

What other kinds of knowledge are there? I thought your assertion that there is no way there to know if a God exists was based on the assumption that we do not have the ability to scientifically test for the existence of a deity. (?)

Cordially,

1,749 posted on 12/21/2005 7:50:09 AM PST by Diamond (Qui liberatio scelestus trucido inculpatus.)
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To: TheWormster
It is a theory because it makes predictions . . .

The predictions it makes largely, if not exclusively, extend to what will be found in a static record, and that record can be interpreted any number of ways. As far as predicting the future course of evolution, or the dynamic process of evolution as it happens today, Darwin's theory is useless. Natural selection is an arbitrary description that is applied only after the fact. How does Darwinian evolution "predict" mutations? Does it specify precisely where, when, and how the mutations will be beneficial?

1,750 posted on 12/21/2005 7:55:15 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: lonestar67
I posted a link of scientific evidence differentiating primates and humans. No one debunked it.

We weren't debunking your article, which is fairly typical of science journalism. We were amused by your interpretation of it.

1,751 posted on 12/21/2005 7:56:36 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Protagoras
I'm glad you caught the condescension, it was certainly purposeful.

Yes, hence my desperate attempt to become a heavyweight like you by mimicking you with my use of "chief." The only thing I forgot (for which I hope you will forgive me, your method is complex and subtle) was to add LOL! after every few sentences to indicate my disdain for the silly notions of another poster that I am cleverly mocking. LOL!

1,752 posted on 12/21/2005 7:59:33 AM PST by Chiapet (Two eyebrows are always better than one.)
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To: ml1954
...we find that ID is not science and cannot be adjudged a valid, accepted scientific theory as it has failed to publish in peer-reviewed journals...

The judge bought this lie hook, line, and sinker, and repeats it in his decision. Discovery org has a list of articles in scientific publications.

Cordially,

1,753 posted on 12/21/2005 8:01:41 AM PST by Diamond (Qui liberatio scelestus trucido inculpatus.)
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To: Kjobs

Excuse me, but the Religion of the Darwinian Scholars Union was not defeated in this case.


1,754 posted on 12/21/2005 8:02:42 AM PST by Free Baptist
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To: Chiapet

Except for one thing, you ain't too clever. LOL


1,755 posted on 12/21/2005 8:04:30 AM PST by Protagoras (Many people teach their children that Jesus is story character but Santa Claus is real.)
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To: PatrickHenry
Judge John E. Jones III -- I know you're lurking -- you done good! God bless you.

It really is superbly reasoned and written. I had feared the judge might view this as a distasteful duty to be dispatched in some manner minimizing the scope of his decision and sweeping as much as possible under the rug. Instead, we have a historic ruling.

1,756 posted on 12/21/2005 8:07:54 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Diamond

"What other kinds of knowledge are there?"

Logic, mathematics.

"I thought your assertion that there is no way there to know if a God exists was based on the assumption that we do not have the ability to scientifically test for the existence of a deity."

We don't. Math and logic won't help us either. Personal revelation can't be trusted, and certainly is not evidence at all for someone who was not the subject of the revelation. And science is also impotent at this time. Unless you know of a way to know if God exists?


1,757 posted on 12/21/2005 8:08:49 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: VadeRetro
There is no attempt in ID to learn the unknown. Rather, it is an exercise in unlearning the known.

Good line. And true.

1,758 posted on 12/21/2005 8:10:58 AM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: Protagoras
Except for one thing, you ain't too clever. LOL

Aww gee, it's just soo hard to live up to the amazing and brilliant example you've set, old man. LOL!

1,759 posted on 12/21/2005 8:11:30 AM PST by Chiapet (Two eyebrows are always better than one.)
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To: Protagoras

"A guy who prays to no one, for things that he doesn't believe can happen, in front of others who also don't believe, after basing his whole identity on his non belief,,,is a very confused person."




The confusion is in your apparent belief that I pray at all. I do not. What would be the point? To what entity would I pray?

If I wish something to happen, and it is in my power to make it happen, I simply do what is necessary to make it happen. If I wish for something to happen, and it is NOT in my power to make it happen, then it will either happen or not happen, regardless of what I might do.

Praying to invisible entities is not one of my techniques for getting things to happen. Hard work is. Convincing people of my point of view is.

Still, few things depend on my convincing anyone of anything, so I rarely bother to do that.

As for my atheism, it is part of who I am. Many here declare themselves as Christians. Some put references to Biblical verses in their taglines. Others make sure they vaunt their Christianity in every message they right.

Yes, my tagline identifies me as an atheist. Another Freeper includes that fact in his Freepname. It's no different from a self-styled Christian doing the same thing.

Still, my unbelief has nothing whatever to do with the Theory of Evolution, which stands on its own merits. It also has nothing to do with school shootings, as you so ineptly implied. It is simply unbelief.

My arguments do not draw on it. I do not attempt to argue the Theory of Evolution based on the existence or non-existence of any supernatural entities. That's irrelevant.

Indeed, I have pointed out that all religions have creation stories. That is a fact. I find it amusing that each religion believes that its creation story is the "true" creation story. I've found such claims to be amusing for as long as I have been studying religions.

And every one of those creation stories is equally irrelevant to scientific theories. As is my atheism. Science is science. It is not related to religious beliefs.

As the judge in this Dover case accurately pointed out, the motivation of the school board was to introduce creationism into a science class, but renamed as Intelligent Design. The story about the wholesale subsitution of the two terms in the "Panda" book is clear evidence of that.

Religion is not science. If it is to be taught, it must be taught as religion. I'm very much in favor of comparative religion classes being taught in our high schools. I think it's a fine idea. I am opposed to the teaching of religious beliefs in science classes. They are irrelevant there.


1,760 posted on 12/21/2005 8:13:06 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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