Intelligent Design case decided - Dover, Pennsylvania, School Board loses [Fox News Alert]

Fox News | 12/20/05

[snarks_when_bored]

Fox News alert a few minutes ago says the Dover School Board lost their bid to have Intelligent Design introduced into high school biology classes. The federal judge ruled that their case was based on the premise that Darwin's Theory of Evolution was incompatible with religion, and that this premise is false.

[benjibrowder]

To be comparing Marx, Stalin, etc to the people that crucified Christ is a little insulting. Besides, how does it relate the the argument/debate at hand, evolution vs intelligent design?

[Baraonda]

"This was found in rock dating back 100,000,000 years, so the fossil is 100,000,000 million years!!! Is that not also circular reasoning?"

That's classical circular reasoning. In addition, evolution cannot explain the huge gaps in fossil records.

[Dimensio]

I find that it's typically difficult to employ ridiculous analogies as a counterpoint when dealing with those who already accept ridiculous analogies as valid logical reasoning.

[Antonello]

Time to take a break from this thread placemarker.

[Road Warrior ‘04]

Now, a hypothetical falsification criteria for "Intelligent Design THEORY"?

You got me on that one! I just want people to be able to think for themselves and not have the government tell us what we can or cannot learn! I have been busting everyone's chops!

[Dimensio]

That's classical circular reasoning.

No, it isn't. If the rock's age is known beforehand, there is nothing circular about dating a fossil found in it based upon the rock. But then you're the idiot who thought that me stating "humans and monkeys share common ancestry" contradicted me stating "humans did not originate from monkeys", so I can understand that rationality and honesty are not your strong suits.

[thomaswest]

No, why do you ask?

[Thatcherite]

To be comparing Marx, Stalin, etc to the people that crucified Christ is a little insulting.

Which ones is it insulting to?

Marx gave rise to an ideology that Stalin used to impoverish and kill millions of people. The not-death of Christ on the cross led to the potential for the salvation of us all according to Christian doctrine as I understand it.

[Dimensio]

You got me on that one!

If there is no hypothetical way to prove Intelligent Design false, then it is not a theory, it is not science and it has no place in science classsrooms.

[hail to the chief]

Where do you stand on the Theory of Exclamation Marks?

[hail to the chief]

The government never told us what we can and cannot learn.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

Here's the problem, in post#736 you said,

"Well it's incredibly easy to criticize Marx & Freud now that they have been largely discredited and act as if it's oh-so-obvious that they were phonies, but at the zenith of their movements, every respectable member of the fields of economics and psychotherapy, respectively, consider them to be almost beyond criticism, their theories not just theories, but the most compelling organized understandings of their subject matters."

I asked for evidence that EVERY respectable member of their fields believed as you said. You went into a big huff and blew smoke out yer butt, but you didn't provide any evidence. Then, later, you CHANGED the conditions of the evidence by changing what you said,

"You want evidence that virtually every economics department in this US, Canada, Britain, eastern and western Europe was dominated by Marxists for most of the 20th century?"(post#853)

That is NOT what you asserted earlier; if you had, I would not have complained. I was challenging your original claim that EVERY RESPECTABLE economist was a fervent Marxist who didn't allow dissent. You retreated from what you said originally, then claimed victory. That's intellectual dishonesty.

[ml1954]

Another excerpt from the decision (P. 88 -89)

After this searching and careful review of ID as espoused by its proponents, as elaborated upon in submissions to the Court, and as scrutinized over a six week trial, we find that ID is not science and cannot be adjudged a valid, accepted scientific theory as it has failed to publish in peer-reviewed journals, engage in research and testing, and gain acceptance in the scientific community. ID, as noted, is grounded in theology, not science. Accepting for the sake of argument its proponents’, as well as Defendants’ argument that to introduce ID to students will encourage critical thinking, it still has utterly no place in a science curriculum. Moreover, ID’s backers have sought to avoid the scientific scrutiny which we have now determined that it cannot withstand by advocating that the controversy, but not ID itself, should be taught in science class. This tactic is at best disingenuous, and at worst a canard. The goal of the IDM is not to encourage critical thought, but to foment a revolution which would supplant evolutionary theory with ID.

To conclude and reiterate, we express no opinion on the ultimate veracity of ID as a supernatural explanation. However, we commend to the attention of those who are inclined to superficially consider ID to be a true “scientific” alternative to evolution without a true understanding of the concept the foregoing detailed analysis. It is our view that a reasonable, objective observer would, after reviewing both the voluminous record in this case, and our narrative, reach the inescapable conclusion that ID is an interesting theological argument, but that it is not science.

[Thatcherite]

Enough Already! Placemarker. See you all tomorrow. Anybody want to offer a spread on how big this thread will grow?

[Canard]

"Where do you stand on the Theory of Exclamation Marks?"

They are footprints of the angels. Those who claim them as mere punctuation marks should accept the teaching of this competing theory...

[js1138]

ID does not require the designer to be a sentient being.

Then ID should have no problem with natural selection, which is a non-sentient designer.

[beaver fever]

"How long did it take to build a coherent table of chemical elements?"

Dimitri Ivanovitch Mendeleev invented the periodic table of elements. The table contained elements that had not yet been discovered but have subsequently by later scientists. A very interesting story found here;

http://www.zephyrus.co.uk/dimitrimendeleev.html

[xzins]

Precisely. The ToE can qualify as an intelligence....any organizing principle that enables the awesome complexity all around us.


What ID has done is demonstrated that the ToE has significant problems...it was a criticism of weaknesses in ToE.

The major criticism is that there is not enough time to accomodate the vast complexity evident in the lifeforms all around us.

[Baraonda]

"I could have sworn that you've already been directed to information that proves you wrong. Are you lying again? That does seem to be a safe assumption with you."

I have already read your speciation FAQ and it proves, to me, that I'm right - speciation has never been observed nor has it been proven occurring.

Now, you may think differently and that's fine with me.

[Ichneumon]

I am also troubled by the fact that asserting that there is no God is apparently considered a non-religious statement and thus capable of being taught in schools

Where did you get that impression? I know of no schools that actually teach "there is no God" (there are some things that some touch people have *mistaken* for such a curriculum, but that's a different issue), and if there were I'd think they could be successfully sued on the same kind of grounds as the Dover school.