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Bush supports 'intelligent design'
MyrtleBeach Online ^ | 02 August 2005 | Ron Hutcheson

Posted on 08/02/2005 4:16:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

President Bush waded into the debate over evolution and "intelligent design" Monday, saying schools should teach both theories on the creation and complexity of life.

In a wide-ranging question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Bush essentially endorsed efforts by Christian conservatives to give intelligent design equal standing with the theory of evolution in the nation's schools.

Bush declined to state his personal views on "intelligent design," the belief that life forms are so complex that their creation cannot be explained by Darwinian evolutionary theory alone, but rather points to intentional creation, presumably divine.

The theory of evolution, first articulated by British naturalist Charles Darwin in 1859, is based on the idea that life organisms developed over time through random mutations and factors in nature that favored certain traits that helped species survive.

Scientists concede that evolution does not answer every question about the creation of life, and most consider intelligent design an attempt to inject religion into science courses.

Bush compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. While he was governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

On Monday, the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The Kansas Board of Education is considering changes to encourage the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and some are pushing for similar changes across the country.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas. The answer is 'yes.'"

The National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science both have concluded there is no scientific basis for intelligent design and oppose its inclusion in school science classes. [Note from PH: links relevant to those organizations and their positions on ID are added by me at the end of this article.]

Some scientists have declined to join the debate, fearing that amplifying the discussion only gives intelligent design more legitimacy.

Advocates of intelligent design also claim support from scientists. The Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank in Seattle that is the leading proponent for intelligent design, said it has compiled a list of more than 400 scientists, including 70 biologists, who are skeptical about evolution.

"The fact is that a significant number of scientists are extremely skeptical that Darwinian evolution can explain the origins of life," said John West, associate director of the organization's Center for Science and Culture.


[Links inserted by PH:]
Letter from Bruce Alberts on March 4, 2005. President of the National Academy of Sciences.
AAAS Board Resolution on Intelligent Design Theory.
Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations. Sixty statements, all supporting evolution.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: bush; bush43; crevolist; darwinisdead; evolution; intelligentdesign; science; scienceeducation
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To: ConsentofGoverned
open your eyes from astrophysics to cell biology there is enough contradictions to "Evolution"

Examples of these "contradictions" please?

the Theory of intelligent design may well be the more powerful influence on biologic diversity

What is the "Theory of intelligent design"? What does it predict, how can it be tested and what hypothetical observation would falsify it? If you can't answer all of those questions, then it is -- without question -- not a scientific theory.
521 posted on 08/02/2005 11:42:30 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Vive ut Vivas

Okay, so I guess if you can't define sin, you can't ever commit sin. That makes it easy. The Bible says all have sinned. Why do you have a problem with that?


522 posted on 08/02/2005 11:42:37 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: thefactor
i love how people are in such awe of nature yet fail to recognize how complex it really is. our small minds cannot comprehend how long the earth has been in existence let alone the age of our universe

Argument by "awe of complexity"? That's not a logical argument.
523 posted on 08/02/2005 11:44:11 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Ichneumon

Didn't you post this same stuff a couple of weeks ago on another thread? Looks like you certainly did your research and it's nice you keep it handy for these situations.


524 posted on 08/02/2005 11:44:52 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: Soul Seeker
So the President doesn't believe in a total blackout to other theories,

What "other theories"? Thus far, no one has even demonstrated that other theories exist. Sure, people have asserted other theories, but when pressed, they absolutely refuse to explain how the explanation they present actually qualifies as a scientific theory. The last person who tried to explain "Intelligent Design theory" to me actually ended up admitting that it does not meet the standards of a scientific theory.
525 posted on 08/02/2005 11:45:29 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Rudder

Based on how he is quoted, I agree with him. Yes, there should be some exposure to the debate, it has become a rather important subject in recent years.

However, I can't say i agree with the kids being taught that the only reasonable answer to an unexplained phenomenon is that God did it.


526 posted on 08/02/2005 11:45:45 AM PDT by Conservomax (There are no solutions, only trade-offs.)
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To: mlc9852

Well, I really want to know what a "sin" is in the first place. It's fundamental to this discussion.


527 posted on 08/02/2005 11:46:25 AM PDT by Vive ut Vivas
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To: ConsentofGoverned
I'm not just talking about species that have gone extinct. I'm talking about design flaws even in existing species, even our own. The giraffe's spinal cord is a prime example. The placement of our optic nerve which creates a blindspot is another. The poor design of our upper vertibrae which cause so many spinal problems for us is another.
528 posted on 08/02/2005 11:46:52 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: Vive ut Vivas
Well, I suppose for simplicity's sake, we could start with the 10 commandments.
529 posted on 08/02/2005 11:47:55 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: gobucks
Eugenics ... my my .... I wonder how often that word gets used in SCEINCE classrooms, or even history classrooms...

Why would/should eugenics be excluded from history class?

To the lurkers out there, you'll find that thread after thread, this poster pretty much is consistent in revealing that he finds the agenda of evolutionists to be less than appealing.

IMO, nothing smacking of an "agenda" belongs in science class.

Remember the book 'The Bell Curve'?

I read it. Did you?

530 posted on 08/02/2005 11:48:48 AM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Ichneumon
"Now feel free to present for us the equally voluminous and strong "evidence for ID". "

The physical evidence for intelligent design is so strong that it is irrefutable in several areas such as:

1. Artificial Intelligence
2. Self-replicating machines
3. Computer Viri

In organic life, we see mathematical Base 4 programming instructions grouped in reusable genetic DNA subroutines (i.e. genes), something that appears related to all three areas of incontrovertible physical evidence (see above list) for intelligent design of some sort.

531 posted on 08/02/2005 11:49:31 AM PDT by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: Ichneumon

Double wow. You included a table this time.


532 posted on 08/02/2005 11:50:53 AM PDT by Asphalt (Join my NFL ping list! FReepmail me| The best things in life aren't things)
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To: ohioWfan
Try as you might, you cannot disconnect Darwin himself from Spencer, Galton OR Sanger.

So what? Nor can you disconnect, say, Martin Luther from antisemitism. After all the Nazis reprinted his On The Jews and Their Lies in large quantities, and Luther did in fact (short of mass murder) affirmatively, even urgently, recommend to European leaders of his day many of the same policies the Nazis would later adopt.

Fact is the connection between Luther and Nazism's anti-Jewish laws is stronger than the connection between Darwinism and eugenics since Darwin rejected positive eugenics (instead advocating social policies based in Whigish classical liberalism) whereas Luther actually did recommend policies such as burning synagogues, confiscating the homes of Jews, forcing them to work at hard labor, denying them protection of the police from physical assaults, and etc. Yet the connection, even in the case of Luther and the Nazis, is not a DIRECT one.

You were talking about a DIRECT connection. Not just vague analogizing like a Hitler translating the idea of "survival of the fittest" from natural history to the realm of militarism.

All you have to do is to say that Darwin was wrong about this, but that his biological study is valid.

Darwin was wrong about any number of things, but not (in the manner you suggest) about eugenics. Darwin rejected the notions of (what is today called) "positive" eugenics. (Although, if enough had been known about genetics to make it useful, he would have probably advocated "negative" eugenics, or what we today call genetic counseling, for example appraising parents of the risks of genetic diseases in their prospective offspring. Darwin did worry a good deal about having passed on health problems to his children, and having exacerbated this by marrying a cousin.)

Speaking more generally your analysis overlooks the long history of scientific racism that extended back before evolution. Darwin actually undermined much of that, as many scientific racists had previously argued that the races of man were separately created species. Sure there were racists who subsequently readjusted their prejudices to the new scientific paradigm, but you do them too much credit by focusing on, and implicitly endorsing as at least contextually valid, their rationalizations.

It's the RACISM that's the primary phenomena, not it's justification. Those justifications have been variously based on religion (including Christianity), philosophy, science, occultism, political ideologies and many other rationales. You are basically taking the (historically) least important among these justifications and pretending it's the only important one, and moreover suggesting those rationalizing prejudice were actually correct in inferring racism from evolution.

There's another indication, besides the preceding history of non-evolutionary scientific racism, and its secondary role to other modes of rationalizing racism, which should suggest to you that it wasn't a particular theory that "caused" scientific racism -- much less racism in general. I have in mind the historical context of mass human migrations.

The ascendancy of scientific racism -- and the heyday of eugenics -- occurred in the 1910's, 20's and somewhat into the 30's (although by that time political ideologies which were themselves typically anti-scientific had taken over the torch). I think it's no coincidence at all that these two decades also saw history's largest influxes of immigrants into Western Europe and America. I think scientific racism, and other cultural manifestations of racism, were largely a reaction to this.

533 posted on 08/02/2005 11:51:04 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: mlc9852
I interpret the Bible by what it says. Most of it is pretty straightforward.

So, you're good with this then?

1 Corinthians 14
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Timothy 2
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
[11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13] For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

534 posted on 08/02/2005 11:53:14 AM PDT by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
More grade school journalism. They could have started with Anaximander in the 6th century BC, or with Lamarck in the modern era.

Correct and if one studied the Greek philosophy from Anaximander through Aristotle ~350 BC they would realize new thought is scarce. They are ignored so that others may proclaim their thoughts as their own.
535 posted on 08/02/2005 11:53:49 AM PDT by jec41 (Screaming Eagle)
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To: PatrickHenry
Well he declined to give his own views. He said folks should be exposed to, not "taught".

""I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas. The answer is 'yes.'""

He could say no folks shouldn't be exposed to "______", or something worse. He should have added though, that the most important teaching is to learn the meaning of "is".

536 posted on 08/02/2005 11:53:57 AM PDT by spunkets
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To: Asphalt
For one thing, being less enamored with moses (very good, you have a basic knowledge of the Bible)

LOL - I grew up in the church and studied Christian apologetics.

537 posted on 08/02/2005 11:55:53 AM PDT by JeffAtlanta
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To: JeffAtlanta; Asphalt
I've done a bit more research on Egypt. The Nile Delta represents 63 percent of the habitable land in Egypt and occupies 80,000 square kilometers, which gives us an area of about 127,000 square kilometers of habitable land between the First Cataract and the Mediterranean. There are also several oases in the desert, which taken together might bring the habitable areas to 150,000 square kilometers.

Now, taking the population density figure of 20 per square kilometer gives us a population of 3 million in classical times. This is a pretty good sized population for any country of that period or even up through the Middle Ages.

Anyway, as can be seen if 2 million folks suddenly uprooted and high-tailed it to Canaan, the social and economic upheaval would be greater than even what I postulated earlier as this is two-thirds of the population.

And, it gets worse.

The land of Canaan (the land of milk and honey) is roughly the size of modern Israel with all the territory captured in the 1967 wars. This entire area is only about 22,000 kilometers in size and is roughly about as productive (we'll be nice) as the Nile valley. This means that at classical levels of agriculture it could support maybe a half million people. The Israelites would have conquered the place and promptly starved to death as their supply of manna had been cut off once they left the desert (notice, I'm giving Scripture the benefit of the doubt here).

538 posted on 08/02/2005 11:56:02 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: bobhoskins
Do you think it should be taught in our schools that all life evolved undirected from a single cell? . . . I think if schools are going to address the progression of life on Earth they should use the current scientific theories, so yes.

How do you falsify a theory that life evolved undirected?

539 posted on 08/02/2005 11:57:38 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Ichneumon
Oh good grief Charlie Brown.......

That was a lot of work to support your faith. God sure did put a lot of work into creating such a marvelous system.

540 posted on 08/02/2005 11:57:47 AM PDT by WVNan
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