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Bush supports 'intelligent design'
MyrtleBeach Online ^ | 02 August 2005 | Ron Hutcheson

Posted on 08/02/2005 4:16:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

President Bush waded into the debate over evolution and "intelligent design" Monday, saying schools should teach both theories on the creation and complexity of life.

In a wide-ranging question-and-answer session with a small group of reporters, Bush essentially endorsed efforts by Christian conservatives to give intelligent design equal standing with the theory of evolution in the nation's schools.

Bush declined to state his personal views on "intelligent design," the belief that life forms are so complex that their creation cannot be explained by Darwinian evolutionary theory alone, but rather points to intentional creation, presumably divine.

The theory of evolution, first articulated by British naturalist Charles Darwin in 1859, is based on the idea that life organisms developed over time through random mutations and factors in nature that favored certain traits that helped species survive.

Scientists concede that evolution does not answer every question about the creation of life, and most consider intelligent design an attempt to inject religion into science courses.

Bush compared the current debate to earlier disputes over "creationism," a related view that adheres more closely to biblical explanations. While he was governor of Texas, Bush said students should be exposed to both creationism and evolution.

On Monday, the president said he favors the same approach for intelligent design "so people can understand what the debate is about."

The Kansas Board of Education is considering changes to encourage the teaching of intelligent design in Kansas schools, and some are pushing for similar changes across the country.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas. The answer is 'yes.'"

The National Academy of Sciences and the American Association for the Advancement of Science both have concluded there is no scientific basis for intelligent design and oppose its inclusion in school science classes. [Note from PH: links relevant to those organizations and their positions on ID are added by me at the end of this article.]

Some scientists have declined to join the debate, fearing that amplifying the discussion only gives intelligent design more legitimacy.

Advocates of intelligent design also claim support from scientists. The Discovery Institute, a conservative think tank in Seattle that is the leading proponent for intelligent design, said it has compiled a list of more than 400 scientists, including 70 biologists, who are skeptical about evolution.

"The fact is that a significant number of scientists are extremely skeptical that Darwinian evolution can explain the origins of life," said John West, associate director of the organization's Center for Science and Culture.


[Links inserted by PH:]
Letter from Bruce Alberts on March 4, 2005. President of the National Academy of Sciences.
AAAS Board Resolution on Intelligent Design Theory.
Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations. Sixty statements, all supporting evolution.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: bush; bush43; crevolist; darwinisdead; evolution; intelligentdesign; science; scienceeducation
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To: WildHorseCrash
Genesis describes a creation event, BBT describes a creation event.

As late as Einstein in the 20's non religionists clung to the theory that there was no creation event, the Universe was static.

The Bible is neither a history book nor a science text so as much as you'd like to make the devil in the details the essence of your reply, it fails.

So you can have your baloney and eat it too, I like turkey.

401 posted on 08/02/2005 10:09:37 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: bobhoskins
Yes, it's by Phillip E. Johnson. THE COLLAPSE OF EVOLUTION is by Scott M. Huse and Ready with a Answer is by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. I didn't list the authors because I didn't really believe that an Evolutionist would actually look them up and read them. Their not what you would call "open minded".
402 posted on 08/02/2005 10:09:47 AM PDT by fish hawk (hollow points were made to hold pig lard)
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To: mlc9852
And what created nature?

And what created God?

Or is it turtles all the way down, then?

If you answer that God didn't need to be created, then you've just torpedoed your initial assumption that nature needed a creator to exist (since you've now admitted that things *can* exist without a creator.

403 posted on 08/02/2005 10:11:03 AM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: bobhoskins

correction: their should be they're.


404 posted on 08/02/2005 10:11:13 AM PDT by fish hawk (hollow points were made to hold pig lard)
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To: WildHorseCrash
Go find a cosmologist and ask him. I am not a cosmologist, nor am I up on the latest science in that area. (But your question about what was there "before" time was created game me a good laugh. The question is pretty ridiculous. There was no "before" before time was created, because "before" means previously in time.)

Cute - what are your thoughts of eternity vs. time? the PhDs would indicate an ability to express yourself with a reasoned train of thought instead of quips - I don't have those lofty degrees, but I can detect a lazy/u informed evasion when I see it. I've heard the Big Bang theories that everything was compreesed to the size of an atom, when time/matter/energy did not exist, to be suddenly spewed out, creating time/energy/mass. Perhaps the term "before time" might seem simplistic to one so lofty as you, but the concept of it can't be that hard to grasp if there was nothing before the Big Bang, then that state must have preceeded it. Then the theories that figure everything will stop expanding, only to recompress and then regenerate in a new Big Bang also indicates that there was a "before".

If you want to snicker, at least take the time to justify it - that shouldn't be too much of an effort compared to the work that went into the degrees. (And I'm not making light of the effort of the degrees - I got a Bachelors in Education going to night classes and I know how time-consuming and strenuous it can be - my hat's off to you for your accomplishments in that area.)

405 posted on 08/02/2005 10:14:05 AM PDT by trebb ("I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." - Jesus in John 14:6 (RSV))
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To: ohioWfan
but this place kinda sucks you in......)

Doesn't it though. Made me break my rule of staying out of these discussions. :)

406 posted on 08/02/2005 10:14:25 AM PDT by WVNan
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To: fish hawk
Yes, it's by Phillip E. Johnson. THE COLLAPSE OF EVOLUTION is by Scott M. Huse and Ready with a Answer is by John Ankerberg and John Weldon. I didn't list the authors because I didn't really believe that an Evolutionist would actually look them up and read them. Their not what you would call "open minded".

Please, remember the lurkers. Most people who are interested in this argument aren't going to post because it gets a little bit heated ... heck, I didn't post for a long time in these threads for that very reason, and I got swept up in the current right away.

I'm ALWAYS looking for more books to add to my reserve list at the library ... of course, it's like my Netflix queue, I'm never sure what will actually become available at any point. I'll reserve a book, and forget about it until it's in months later ...

407 posted on 08/02/2005 10:14:27 AM PDT by bobhoskins
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To: RadioAstronomer

Alas, it has already been spun.


408 posted on 08/02/2005 10:15:03 AM PDT by RightWingAtheist (Creationism is not conservative!)
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To: bobhoskins
Oh.........you can use what I've said in this thread, bob......as long as you go back and read what I've actually said, and not what you thought I said because you were being defensive.

Feel free to use my logic 'against me' any time you wish. I stand by everything I've said on this thread.

btw, your mixing of issues was not because you were responding to different issues I brought up. You were mixing them within themselves, and that was what created the problems.

409 posted on 08/02/2005 10:15:28 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: All
The thread's been up for 5 hours, and we've cracked 400 posts. I suspected things would go this way.
410 posted on 08/02/2005 10:15:33 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: Ichneumon

I admit only God can create. He always was. Hard to comprehend, though, to my small mind.


411 posted on 08/02/2005 10:16:05 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: WVNan
LOL! I was supposed to be out of the house an hour ago, Nan!

Maybe I'll get there eventually!

412 posted on 08/02/2005 10:16:58 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: thefactor
I agree. President Bush takes a very reasoned stance.

As for creationists and evolutionists : A POX ON BOTH YOUR HOUSES.

413 posted on 08/02/2005 10:17:08 AM PDT by Alkhin (Ask me about Usborne Books!)
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To: ohioWfan
This 'joke' of yours (in response to the post it was a reply to) is both ignorant of what Christiantiy is, and what its followers have in the past, and now believe. You are ignorant of Christianity because you have naively swallowed what you have been taught in school about Christians by leftist historians and text writers.
You have some serious mental problems if you can conclude that from a joke about blood letting. I was joking about the prior state of medical "knowledge." I mentioned neither Christian, Christianity, or Christian beliefs.
And it is arrogant in it's mocking of those who differ with you, intellectually and logically, and not because you are not a man of faith......you are.........you have great faith if you believe in the impossibility of evolution. But you are afraid of those who challenge your particular belief system, so you mock them.
Ha ha ha. This is the standard "everyone has faith" b.s. I have no problem is someone wants to challenge evolution with science. No problem. But since challenging science with religion is pitiful. It makes a mockery of science, and humanity's quest for knowledge. Some appear content to wallow in the ignorance of superstition for fear of having to contemplate life without their emotional security blanket. So if you infer any mockery from my posts, I can only say they are a mirror of that which you put out there.
I stand by my post that it is you evolutionary zealots who are the ignorant and arrogant.
You are quite brave, standing by an opinion. You should get a medal... (That's more of that mockery.)
414 posted on 08/02/2005 10:18:13 AM PDT by WildHorseCrash
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To: PatrickHenry
The theory of evolution, first articulated by British naturalist Charles Darwin in 1859...

More grade school journalism. They could have started with Anaximander in the 6th century BC, or with Lamarck in the modern era.

415 posted on 08/02/2005 10:18:49 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Junior

Interesting post.

Just a thought, though. When Heinrich Schliemann discovered Troy (the Troy of the Iliad) there was virtually no one who believed that Troy existed ever. Schliemann believed it. He was basically alone. He believed that the Iliad had mostly fact.

Nowadays, most archaeologists accept the fact that, he did, in fact uncover Troy somewhere in Turkey. It's a pretty amazing accomplishment if you think about it. Also interestingly, he had to dig down through eight cities on top of each other before he found the "real Troy". And the scientific community of his day didn't even know a city had ever been there.

So...the point being. I don't think we know as much about the world as we think we do. I'm not commenting on your particular post, incidentally. I'm just interjecting a cautionary idea into our thinking about antiquity.

At the end of the day....it turned out that the mythological Iliad was more accurate than the science of Schliemann's day. It may turn out that Exodus, though dismissed by most as mythology or pure fabrication, is factual.


416 posted on 08/02/2005 10:19:00 AM PDT by ConservativeDude
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To: ohioWfan
Oh.........you can use what I've said in this thread, bob......as long as you go back and read what I've actually said, and not what you thought I said because you were being defensive.

Oh, I read much more on these evo/id threads than I actually post ... I actually enjoy the arguments on both sides.

Feel free to use my logic 'against me' any time you wish. I stand by everything I've said on this thread.

I try to keep it on a thread by thread basis ... of course, if you start posting on a different thread that you suddenly are all for the theory of evolution, I'd have to ask you why. :)

btw, your mixing of issues was not because you were responding to different issues I brought up. You were mixing them within themselves, and that was what created the problems.

Okay, thanks for pointing out the confusion.

This is probably a boring post for most of you readers, I'll try to be more argumentative next time.

417 posted on 08/02/2005 10:19:15 AM PDT by bobhoskins
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To: bobhoskins
If you really want to see a great video of this subject try to get A Question Of Origins, put out by Bridgestone Multimedia Group. (maybe Amazon has it?)
418 posted on 08/02/2005 10:19:45 AM PDT by fish hawk (hollow points were made to hold pig lard)
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To: ConservativeDude

Since the debate about origins cannot be solved with certainty, you may have a point about leaving that discussion out of science in primary schools and take it up in philosophy classes. Because when all is said and done it is a philosophical question. Both EV and ID start with a philosophical premise. I think that delving into Quantum Physics brings one to the possibility that matter is not as real as we suppose.


419 posted on 08/02/2005 10:21:44 AM PDT by WVNan
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To: fish hawk
If you really want to see a great video of this subject try to get A Question Of Origins, put out by Bridgestone Multimedia Group. (maybe Amazon has it?)

It appears to be VHS only ... maybe my library sytem has it ...

(I love using Amazon to look up book/movie information ... I hate giving them my money.)

420 posted on 08/02/2005 10:22:07 AM PDT by bobhoskins
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