Posted on 01/29/2005 6:12:28 AM PST by NYer
Hamilton, Ontario, Jan. 28, 2005 (CNA) - Canadian archaeologist Russell Adams, a professor at McMaster University has recently unearthed evidence, which helps to show the historical accuracy of the Bible.
Professor Adams and his team of colleagues have found information that points to the existence of the Biblical Kingdom of Edom existing at precisely the time Scripture claims it existed.
The evidence flies in the face of a common belief that Edom actually came into existence at least 200 years later.
According to the Canadian Globe and Mail, the group’s findings “mean that those scholars convinced that the Hebrew Old Testament is at best a compendium of revisionist, fragmented history, mixed with folklore and theology, and at worst a piece of outright propaganda, likely will have to apply the brakes to their thinking.”
The Kingdom of Edom, mentioned throughout the Old Testament, and a continuous source of hostility for Biblical Israel, is thought to have existed in what is now southern Jordan.
The group made their discovery while investigating a copper mining site called Khirbat en-Nahas.
According to the Globe and Mail, radiocarbon dating of their finds, “firmly established that occupation of the site began in the 11th century BC and a monumental fortress was built in the 10th century BC, supporting the argument for existence of an Edomite state at least 200 years earlier than had been assumed.”
The evidence is also said to suggest that the Kingdom existed at the same time David, who scripture recounts as warring with Edom, was king over Israel.
????
There are only TWO religions in the whole world. See if you can figure out which one you embrace.
So wrong.
The Fathers and the Deuterocanonicals
During the Reformation, for largely doctrinal reasons, Protestants removed seven books from the Old Testament (1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith) and parts of two others (Daniel and Esther), even though these books had been regarded as canonical since the beginning of Church history.
As Protestant church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive [than the Protestant Bible]. . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called apocrypha or deuterocanonical books" (Early Christian Doctrines, 53). Below we give patristic quotations that incorporate references to or quotations from the deuterocanonical books. Notice how the Fathers cited these books along with the protocanonicals (those books accepted as canonical by all Christians). Also included are the earliest official canon lists. For the sake of brevity these are not given in full. When the canon lists cited here are given in full, they include all the books and only the books found in the modern Catholic Bible.
(Note: Some books of the Bible have gone under more than one name. Sirach is also known as Ecclesiasticus, 1 and 2 Chronicles as 1 and 2 Paralipomenon, Ezra and Nehemiah as 1 and 2 Esdras, and 1 and 2 Samuel with 1 and 2 Kings as 1, 2, 3, and 4 Kings—that is, 1 and 2 Samuel are named 1 and 2 Kings, and 1 and 2 Kings are named 3 and 4 Kings. This confusing nomenclature is explained more fully in Catholic Bible commentaries.)
Didache
"You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).
Letter of Barnabas
"Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Isa. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]" (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).
Pope Clement I
"By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, "What have you done?" or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]" (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).
Irenaeus
"Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left on the earth, should both be under the rule of the saints and to minister to this [new] Jerusalem and that [his] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem toward the east and behold the joy which comes to you from God himself. Behold, your sons whom you have sent forth shall come: They shall come in a band from the east to the west. . . . God shall go before with you in the light of his splendor, with the mercy and righteousness which proceed from him’ [Bar. 4:36–5:9]" (ibid., 5:35:1; Baruch was often reckoned as part of Jeremiah, as it is here).
Polycarp
"Stand fast, therefore, in these things, and follow the example of the Lord, being firm and unchangeable in the faith, loving the brotherhood [1 Pet. 2:17]. . . . When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms deliver from death’ [Tob. 4:10, 12:9]. Be all of you subject to one another [1 Pet. 5:5], having your conduct blameless among the Gentiles [1 Pet. 2:12], and the Lord may not be blasphemed through you. But woe to him by whom the name of the Lord is blasphemed [Isa. 52:5]!" (Letter to the Philadelphians 10 [A.D. 135]).
Irenaeus
"Those . . . who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]" (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).
Hippolytus
"What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah" (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Daniel 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).
Cyprian
"In Genesis [it says], ‘And God tested Abraham and said to him, "Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering." ’ [Gen. 22:1–2] . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], ‘Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality’ [Wis. 3:4]. Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], ‘Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness’" [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21–23] (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian
"So Daniel, too, when he was required to worship the idol Bel, which the people and the king then worshiped, in asserting the honor of his God, broke forth with full faith and freedom, saying, ‘I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who created the heaven and the earth’ [Dan. 14:5]" (Letters 55:5 [A.D. 253]; Dan. 14 is not in the Protestant Bible).
Council of Rome
"Now indeed we must treat of the divine Scriptures, what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she ought to shun. The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book; Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Joshua [Son of] Nave, one book; Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; Kings, four books [that is, 1 and 2 Samuel and 1 and 2 Kings]; Paralipomenon [Chronicles], two books; Psalms, one book; Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus, one book . . . . Likewise the order of the historical [books]: Job, one book; Tobit, one book; Esdras, two books [Ezra and Nehemiah]; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; Maccabees, two books" (Decree of Pope Damasus [A.D. 382]).
Council of Hippo
"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical Scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical Scriptures are as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon, the twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . ." (canon 36 [A.D. 393]).
Council of Carthage III
"[It has been decided] that nothing except the canonical Scriptures should be read in the Church under the name of the divine Scriptures. But the canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, Paralipomenon, two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, Sirach], twelve books of the Prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the Maccabees . . ." (canon 47 [A.D. 397]).
Augustine
" [T]here are also others too, of a different order . . . such as Job and Tobit and Esther and Judith and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Esdras . . . . Then there are the Prophets, in which there is one book of the Psalms of David, and three of Solomon. . . . But as to those two books, one of which is entitled Wisdom and the other of which is entitled Ecclesiasticus and which are called ‘of Solomon’ because of a certain similarity to his books, it is held most certainly that they were written by Jesus Sirach. They must, however, be accounted among the prophetic books, because of the authority which is deservedly accredited to them" (Christian Instruction 2:8:13 [A.D. 397]).
Augustine
"We read in the books of the Maccabees [2 Macc. 12:43] that sacrifice was offered for the dead. But even if it were found nowhere in the Old Testament writings, the authority of the Catholic Church which is clear on this point is of no small weight, where in the prayers of the priest poured forth to the Lord God at his altar the commendation of the dead has its place" (The Care to Be Had for the Dead 1:3 [A.D. 421]).
Apostolic Constitutions
"Now women also prophesied. Of old, Miriam the sister of Moses and Aaron [Ex. 15:20], and after her, Deborah [Judg. 4:4], and after these Huldah [2 Kgs. 22:14] and Judith [Jud. 8], the former under Josiah and the latter under Darius" (Apostolic Constitutions 8:2 [A.D. 400]).
"I am an anti-Evangelical/Fundamentalist, loudly" ~ olde north church
So am I. But then I reject all the doctrines held (knowingly or unknowingly) by those in the man-centered religion (see #342).
Some of the Premillennial/Dispensationalist beliefs that are held by the evangelical / fundamentalists you speak of actually originated here:
"One of the antichrists who afflicted the early church was Cerinthus, the leader of a first-century Judaistic cult. He was regarded by the Church Fathers as "the Arch-heretic," and identified as one of the "false apostles" who opposed Paul.
Cerinthus was a Jew who joined the Church and began drawing Christians away from the orthodox faith. .....[he] also advocated a doctrine of justification by works in particular...in order to be saved.
Furthermore, Cerinthus was apparently the first to teach that the Second Coming would usher in a literal reign of Christ in Jerusalem for a thousand years. Although this was contrary to the apostolic teaching of the Kingdom, Cerinthus claimed that an angel had revealed this doctrine to him." (Chapter 12,Paradise Restored)
*
Paul emphasizes "rightly handling the word of truth" [2Tim.2:15], and the "God-breathed" character of "Scripture" for "teaching", for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." [2Tim.3:16; Jude 3; 2Pet.1:19-20; 3:16].
John tells God's elect saints that TRUTH is already in them: "..the anointing which you have received from God abides in you and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in him." [1John 2:27]
Jesus said the same thing about those [elect saints] that his Father has given him out of the world: John 17:6-10, 17,23.
Of course these Scriptures contradict those in the man-centered religion who disbelieve God and prefer to believe that God's Elect (the invisible universal church) needs some man to "interpret" the Scriptures for them.
"So wrong. ...During the Reformation, for largely doctrinal reasons, Protestants removed seven books from the Old Testament (1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach, Wisdom, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith) and parts of two others (Daniel and Esther), even though these books had been regarded as canonical since the beginning of Church history. ..." - fatheroffive
UNREAL! If you had bothered to read what I wrote in #333 you would have seen that it refuted what you posted even BEFORE you posted it. Hahahaha
You also wrote this: The Didache: "You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28]. Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]" (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]). ~ fatheroffive
Yes.....some scholars wanted to include as Scripture the writing called the Didache.
It is even quoted by some today as if it were an authority on the teaching on the early church or on the same level as the New Testament writings, yet it contradicts or adds to the commands of the NT at many points.
(For example, in the Didache Christians are told to let alms sweat in their hands until they know to whom they are giving (1.6); fasting is required on Wednesdays and Fridays but prohibited on Mondays and Thursdays (8.1); Christians are required to pray the Lord's prayer three times a day (8.3); apostles are prohibited from staying in a city more than two days (11.5) - (but note that the apostle Paul stayed 1 1/2 years in Corinth and 3 years in Ephesus); prophets who speak in the spirit cannot be tested or examined (11.7) - (a contradiction to the other Scriptures: 1 Cor. 14:29 & 1 Thess.5:20-21)
And here's more:
The "Gospel of Thomas" [not the apostle], which for a time was held by some scholars to belong to the NT canon, ends with the absurd statement [which contradicts the rest of Scripture]:
"Simon Peter said to them: "Let Mary go away from us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said: "Lo, I shall lead her, so that I may make her a male, that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself a male will enter the kingdom of heaven." etc., etc.
Luckily we don't have to worry about any of this because it is God Himself, via the Holy Spirit who assures the transmission of the text down through the ages. It doesn't depend upon human efforts.
"My sheep (in whom is my Spirit) hear my voice" [John 10:27]
Very well then? I must ask you - what is it that you DO believe in?
Are you a Christian? Pagan? Wiccan? Agnostic? Deist? Theist?
The Catholic Church no longer discourages parishioners from reading the Bible, as it once did.
I haven't read this entire thread, but from the beginning of it it appears that there are a bunch of fuming idiots on here who didn't even undersatand your question, and have run off at the mouth (or keyboard) accusing you of being anti-Catholic.
In fact, Catholics were at one time enjoined from reading the Bible. My wife was once castigated by a vile old nun for asking, in Catechism class, if they could be allowed to read the Bible. What she was told at that time was that "the Bible is difficult to undersatand, and we need the Priests to interpret it for us".
I thought that had remained the case, until I talked with a Catholic cow orker about it, who was amazed to hear my wife's story and told me (she is about 20 years younger than my wife) that if there had been such a prohibition, it was before her time, and that the Bible is read in the Church today, and they study it in Sunday school and in Bible classes like the rest of the denominations.
(Won't change my wife's mind anyway, though; she quit the Church at age 14 when she went to confession and tried to confess having abused her dog, and the priest told her that wasn't a sin, and she's never gone back.)
I should add the disclaimer that my wife is from Commuchusetts, so in all probability Catholics there are agents of Satan just like the rest of the population - but it's got nothing to do with their Catholicism.
"I have become interested in Calvin's ideas." olde north church
Interesting. Do you realize there were "Calvin's ideas", long before Calvin was born?? :)
Here ya go with some of them:
"Let us therefore approach Him in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto Him, with love towards our gentle and compassionate Father because He made us an elect portion of Himself...Seeing then that we are the special elect portion of a holy God, let us do all things that pertain unto holiness...There was given a declaration of blessedness upon them that have been elected by God through Jesus Christ our Lord...Jesus Christ is the hope of the elect... [Clement of Rome A.D. 69 (Clement who was referenced in Phil. 4:3)]
It is the will of God that all whom He loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent. he has established it by His almighty will. But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is His almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of His? [Clement of Rome in A.D. 69]
Creator, guard intact unto the end the number that hath been numbered of Thine elect throughout the whole world, through Your beloved Son Jesus Christ...For You chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and You chose us through Him for a peculiar people. [Prayer of Clement of Rome]
God gives repentance to us, introducing us into the incorruptible temple. [Barnabus in A.D. 70]
".. before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt [Barnabas, the associate of Paul in A.D. 70]
We are elected to hope, committed by God unto faith, appointed to salvation. [Barnabus in A.D. 70]
[Christ speaking] I see that I shall thus offer My flesh for the sins of the new people. [Barnabas in A.D.]
They that are carnal cannot do the things that are spiritual...Nor can an unbeliever do the things of belief.[The celebrated Church Father Ignatius in A.D. 110]
To the predestined ones before all ages, that is before the world begand, united and elect in a true passion, by the eternal will of the Father... [Salutation of Ignatious in a letter to the Ephesians (the same local church to whom Paul sent his inspired epistle) A.D. 110]
Pray for them, if so be they may repent, which is very difficult; but Jesus Christ, our true life, has the power of this. [Ignatius in A.D. 110]
Having sometime before convinced us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life, hath now shown us the Savior who is able to save them which otherwise were impossible to be saved...Free will has detroyed us, we are sold into sin. [Justin Martyr in A.D. 150]
Mankind by Adam fell under death, and the deception of the serpent; we are born sinners...No good thing dwells in us...For neither by nature, nor by human understanding is it possible for men to acquire the knowledge of things so great and so divine, but by the energy of the Divine Spirit...Of ourselves it is impossible to enter the kingdom of God...He has convicted us of the impossibility of our nature to obtain life...Free-will has destroyed us; we who were free are become slaves and for our sin are sold...Being pressed down by our sins, we cannot move upward toward God; we are like birds who have wings, but are unable to fly. [Justin Martyr in A.D. 150]
He endured the sufferings for those men whose souls are purified from all iniquitey...As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by His blood and the mystery of the cross. [Justin Martyr in A.D. 150]
It behooveth us to be very scrupulous and to assign to God the power over all things...The multitued marveled that there should be so great a difference between the unbelievers and the elect...The Lord maketh election from His own servants....Glory be unto God for the salvation of His holy elect. [Letter from the church of Smyrna (Rev 1:11; 2:8) circulated to the other churches reminding them of their commitment to the gospel. A.D. 157]
Christ suffered for the salvation of the whole world of them that are saved. [Chruch of Smyrna in A.D. 169]
He came to save all, all, I say, who through Him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men...Jesus is the Savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not. Wherefore, Christ is introduced in the gospel weary...promising to give His life a ransom in the roof of, many. [Irenaeus in A.D. 180 on 1 Timothy 2:6]
Not of ourselves, but of God, is the blessing of our salvation...Man, who was before led captive, is taken out of the power of the possessor, according to the mercy of God the Father, and restoring it, gives salvation to it by the Word; that is, by Christ; that man may experimentally learn that not of himself, but by the gift of God, he receives immortality. [Irenaeus in A.d. 180]
The soul cannot rise or fly, nor be lifted up above the things that are on high, without special grace. [Clement of Alexandrea in A.D. 190]
Through faith the elect of God are saved. The generation of those who seek God is the elect nation, not the place but the congreagation of the elect, which I call the Chruch...If every person had known the truth, they would all have leaped into the way, and there would have been no election...You are those who are chosen from among men and as those who are predestined from among men, and in His own time called, faithful, and elect, those who before the foundation of the world are known intimately by God unto faith; that is, are appointed by Him to faith, grow beyond babyhood. [Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 190]
Such a soul (of a Christian) shall never at any time be separated from God...Faith, I say, is something divine, which cannot be pulled asunder by any other worldly friendship, nor be dissolved by present fear. [Clement of Alexandria in A.D. 190]
God hath completed the number which He before determined with Himself, all those who are written, or ordained unto eternal life...Being predestinded indeed according to the love of the Father that we would belong to Him forever. [Iranaeus, the desciple of the martyr Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John (A.D. 198)]
In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your own holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found of the elect number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved [set apart] for everlasting salvation. [Justin Martyr to Trypho the Jew (2nd Century)]
God, out of all nations, took your nation to Himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing toward those that are chosen out of every nation to obey His will, by Christ, whom also He calls jacob, and names Israel. [Clement of Rome to Trypho the Jew]
Whatsoever we [pagans] ascribe to fate, so you to God; and so men desire your sect not of their own free will, but as elect of God; wherefore you suppose an unjust judge, who punishes in men lot or fortune, and not on the basis of their will. [Coecilius (a heathan) in a charge on the teaching of election to Octavius (a Christian). One would expect a heathen
Christ died for the salvation of His people...for the church. [Tertullian in A.D. 200]
God forbid that we should believe that the soul of any saint should be drawn out by the devil....For what is of God is never extinguished. [Tertullian]
Do you think, O men, that we could ever have been able to have understood these things in the Scriptures unless by the will of Him that wills all things, we had received grace to understand them?...But by this it is plain, that it (faith) is not given to thee by God because thou dost not ascribe it to Him alone. [Tertullian in A.D. 200]
This is therefore the predestination which we faithfully and humbly preach. [Cyprian in A.D. 250]
All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved...Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape...he redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood...Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ. [Cyprian in A.D. 250]
Whatsoever is grateful is to be ascribed not to man's power, but to God's gift. it is God's, I say, all is God's that we can do. Yea, that in nothing must we glory, since nothing is ours. [Cyprian in A.D. 250]
You place the salvation of your souls in yourselves, and trust that you may be made gods by your inward endeavor, yet it is not in our own power to reach things above. [Arnobius addressing the heathen in A.d. 303]
the victory lies in the will of God, not in thine own. to overcome is not in our own power. [Lactantius in A.d. 320]
He was to suffer and be slain for the salvation of many people...who having suffered death for us, hath made us heirs of the everlasting kingdom, having abdicated and disinherited the people of the Jews...He stretched out His hands in His passion and measured the world, that he might at that very time show that a large people, gathered out of all languages and tribes, should come under His wings, and receive the most great and sublime sign. [Lactantius in A.D. 320]
The liberty of our will in choosing things that are good is destroyed. [Eusebius (an orthodox church historian) in A.D. 330]
To what "us" does refer, unless to them that believe in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ's coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by Him. [Eusebius in A.D. 330]
To believe is not ours, or in our power, but the Spirit's who is in us, and abides in us. [Athanasius (who bears the name of the foundational Athanasian Creed) in A.d. 350]
The Son of God, by the pouring out of His precious blood, redeemed His set apart ones; they are delivered by the blood of Christ. [Julius in A.D. 350]
He shall remain in the sight of God forever, having already taken all whom He hath redeemed to be kings of heaven, and co-heirs of eternity, delivering them as the kingdom of God to the Father. [Hilarius in A.D. 363]
If, therefore, they are servants of sin (2 Cor. 3:17), why do they boast of free will?...O, man! Learn from the precept what you ought to do; learn from correction, that it is your own fault you have not the power...Let human effort, which perished by Adam, here be silent, and let the grace of God reign by Jesus Christ...What God promises, we ourselves do not through free will of human nature, but He Himself does by grace within us...Men labor to find in our own will something that is our own, and not God's; how they can find it, I know not. [St. Augustine A.D. 370]
To will is from God [Gregory of Nazianzum in A.D. 370]
Faith itself is to be attributed to God...Faith is made a gift. These men, however, attribute faith to free will, so grace is rendered to faith not as a gratuituous gift, but as a debt...They must cease from saying this. [St. Augustine in A.D. 370]
Of these believers no one perishes, because they all were elected. And they are elected because they were called according to the purpose-the purpose, however, not their own, but God's...Obedience then is God's gift...To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverence in good, progressing even to the end. is also a great gift of God. [St. Augustine]
In predestination the Church of God has always existed. [Ambrose of Milan in A.D. 380]
Here cetainly, there is no place for the vain argument of those who defend the foreknowledge of God against the grace of God, and accordingly maintain that we were elected before the foundation of the world because God foreknew that we would be good, not that He Himself would make us good. This is not the language of Him who said, 'You did not choose Me, bu I chose you' (John 15:16) [St. Augustine in A.D. 380]
Before the foundation of the world, it was God's will that Chirst should suffer for our salvation. [St. Ambrose in A.D. 380]
Much more, He will not allow him that is redeemed to be destroyed, nor will He cast away those whom He has redeemed with a great price. [Pacianus in A.D. 380]
Can He damn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death? [St. Ambrose in A.D. 380]
If you are redeemed...If therefore ye are bought with blood, thou art not of the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood...He gave His life for His own sheep. [Epiphanius on those who rejected the gospel in A.D. 390]
Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers...Not allare redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant...All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou has prepared for Thyself by Thine own blod...Christ came to redeem Zion with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one in Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Chruch...He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe. [Hieronymus in A.d. 390]
This is the chief righteousness of man, to reckon that whatsoever power he canhave, is not his own, but the Lord's who gives it...See how great is the help of God, and how frail the condition of man that we cannot by any means fulfill this, that we repent, unless the Lord first convert us...When He(Jesus) says, "no man can come to Me," He breaks the proud liberty of free will; for man can desire nothing, and in vain he endeavors...Where is the proud boasting of free will?...We pray in vain if it is in our own will. Why should men pray for that from the Lord which they have in the power of their own free will? [Hieronymus in A.D. 390]
If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, 'I was found by them that did not seek Me; I appeared openly to them that asked not after Me.' If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he opposeth the Holy Spirit Himself who says through Solomon, 'the will is prepared by the Lord.' If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe-if anyone says that this belongs to us naturally and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles...For those who state that faith by which we believe in God is our own make all who are separated from the Church of Christ in some measure believers.
If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from His gift, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, etc., but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we even have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things we ought, he contradicts the Apostles...If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our own powers...he is led away by a heretical spirit...If anyone maintains that he comes through free will, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. Council of Orange (A.D. 529)
Since only the elect are saved, it may be accepted that Christ did not come to save all and did not die on the cross or all. [Remigius in A.D. 850]
We confess a predestination of the elect to life, and a predestination of the wicked to death; that, in the election of those who are saved, the mercy of God precedes anything we do, and in the condemnation of those who will perish, evil merit precedes the righteous judgment of God. Council of Valence (A.D. 855)
If you die in unbelief, Christ did not die for you. [Anselm 11th Century]
Is it not...perverse blindness to teach how a man can do nothing of his own self, and yet presumptuously take upon them the greatest and highest work of God, even to make faith in themselves of their own power, and of their own false imagination and thoughts? Therefore, I say, we must despair of ourselves and pray to God to give us faith. [William Tyndale in A.D. 1520]
We become sons of God by a power divinely given us-not by any power of 'free-will' inherent in us!...What is hereby attributed to man's own decision and free-will? What indeed is left but nothing! In truth, nothing! Since the source of grace is the predestinating purpose of God, then it comes bynecessity, and not by any effort of endeavor on our part. [Martin Luther]
A man without the Spirit of God does not do evil against his will, under pressure, as though he were taken by the scruff of the neck and dragged into it; no, he does it spontaneously and voluntarily...On the other hand, when God works in us, the will is changed under the sweet influence of the Spirit of God...With regard to God and in all that bears on salvation or damnation, man has not 'free-will,' but is a captive, prisoner and bondslave... [Martin Luther in A.D. 1530]
Now may not we ask why God chooseth one and not another; for God hath power over all of His creatures to do as He pleaseth [William Tyndale -16th century]
Christ's blood only putteth away the sins of them that are elect...We are elect through Christ's blood...Thou are elect to everlasting by Christ's blod, whose gift and purchase is thy faith. [William Tyndale]
For in an absolute sense, Christ did not die for everyone, because he says: "this is My blood which is poured out on you" and "for many" -He does not say: for every person -"for the forgiveness of sins." As the Apostle says, "Everything for the sake of the elect". [Martin Luther]
Many have acertain imagination of faith. They think no farther than that faith is a thing which is in their power to have, as do other natural works which men do...But the right faith springeth not of man's fantasy, neither is it in any man's power to obtain it, even faith is God's gift and grace...Faith rooteth herself in the hearts of the elect.
Although this matter is very hard for the "prudence of the flesh", which is made even more indignant by it and brought even to the point of blasphemy, because here it is strangled to death and reduced to absolutely nothing, man understands that salvation comes in no way from something working in himself, but only from outside himself, namely, from God, who elects. But those who have the "prudence of the Spirit" delight in this subject with ineffable pleasure. [Martin Luther]
There are two causes which require such things to be preached. The first is the humbling of our pride and knowledge of the grace of God. The second is, the future of the Christian faith itself. [Martin Luther]
Christ is in thee, and thou in Him, knit together inseparably. Neither canst thou be damned, except Christ be damned with thee: neither can Christ be saved, except thou be saved with Him. [William Tyndale]
So when Christ said "This is my Body", He way lying.
And when God spoke, And lo a voice from heaven, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased' (Matthew 3:17) he used the same "Is" as Jesus did.
It actually is the Body of Christ, or Jesus was not a real man. Only representing a man, or a symbolic man.
Either you take the Bible for what it says, or you apply a tradition of man in explaining the meaning of "is"
Is the church the school?
I would say that the Church should hold to a much higher standard.
Great answers but I fear the wall you've run into is very thick.
How do you explain John 6:63?
Becky
I'm am curious what your response is to Matchett-PI based on his post #346. You merely copy and pasted a page from www.catholic.com (you should give them credit). But Matchett-PI provided a historically accurate timeline which clearly describes the canonical development of the Bible within the Catholic Church, and destroys the myth that A. without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible, and B. the canon of the Bible has remained unchanged for thousands of years. Is there any part of his post #333 that is factually incorrect?
Narses,
I've pinged you here because you never responded to my last post to you (#234) concerning your claim that "the Catholic Church defined the Bible." I'd be interested to know what comments you might have on Matchett-PI's post #333.
How do you explain John 6:63?
In context. You need to read and understand the whole "bread of life" discourse.
For Fundamentalist writers, the scriptural argument is capped by an appeal to John 6:63: "It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." They say this means that eating real flesh is a waste. But does this make sense?
Are we to understand that Christ had just commanded his disciples to eat his flesh, then said their doing so would be pointless? Is that what "the flesh is of no avail" means? "Eat my flesh, but you’ll find it’s a waste of time"—is that what he was saying? Hardly.
The fact is that Christ’s flesh avails much! If it were of no avail, then the Son of God incarnated for no reason, he died for no reason, and he rose from the dead for no reason. Christ’s flesh profits us more than anyone else’s in the world. If it profits us nothing, so that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ are of no avail, then "your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15:17b–18).
In John 6:63 "flesh profits nothing" refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: "You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me." So natural human judgment, unaided by God’s grace, is unreliable; but God’s judgment is always true.
And were the disciples to understand the line "The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life" as nothing but a circumlocution (and a very clumsy one at that) for "symbolic"? No one can come up with such interpretations unless he first holds to the Fundamentalist position and thinks it necessary to find a rationale, no matter how forced, for evading the Catholic interpretation. In John 6:63 "flesh" does not refer to Christ’s own flesh—the context makes this clear—but to mankind’s inclination to think on a natural, human level. "The words I have spoken to you are spirit" does not mean "What I have just said is symbolic." The word "spirit" is never used that way in the Bible. The line means that what Christ has said will be understood only through faith; only by the power of the Spirit and the drawing of the Father (cf. John 6:37, 44–45, 65).
Paul Confirms This
Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them. Paul also said, "Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself" (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). "To answer for the body and blood" of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine "unworthily" be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.
check out http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp
for a full discussion
Very good summary, NYer!
One of the more hilarious "just so" statements I've ever seen outside of the ravings of some others in the man-centered religion -- like Benny Hinn and some of the other sheep-shearing TBN / CBN grifters. Hahahaha
It must totally burn you up to be the one in class begging to be called on, waving your hand wildly hoping the teacher notices you. Waiting to be chosen and then passed over. Is that the cause for your arrogance and bitterness? Humility may be in order.
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