I'm a liberal and I'm here to learn

[rogerv]

Hi, gang,

I was a regular contributor to the Kerry Online Forum and am now a regular contributor to the Common Ground Common Sense forum. I am a liberal, but I'll be the first to admit, I don't have all the answers. In fact, many of hte questions that matter to me probably matter to you too. I'm concerned with questions about how to tame power, whether governmental or corporate. I'm concern with the rule of law and how we can get the powerful to take it seriously. I'm concerned with the erosion of civil liberties. And yes, I am concerned about some things you may associate with liberalism--social safety nets and taking care of those who fall through the institutional cracks.

I'm here because I think agreement is overrated and that critics can be your best friends: they keep you from getting sloppy or careless. At any rate, I think there are things I can learn from you. I don't expect you are all agreed on anything--I expect there is a lot of diversity of opinion here. If you are interested in what I have said over at Common Ground Common Sense, I'm using the same handle both places, and you should feel free to come over and look around.

Anyway, I'm new here. Anybody care to give me a tour?

[pharmamom]

Tens of millions are uninsured by choice -- they are young people who have better ways to spend their money. Or they are between jobs and between insurances. The "45 million" uninsured today were not the same "45 million" uninsured last year. And there is always another option: pay for your healthcare. Who said anyone had the right to healthcare? If people saved their money, gave up their fast food, their cable TV and their cell phones, they could pay for the basic interventions most of them need: blood pressure, cholesterol, etc. Of course, they could also get off their fat a$$es and exercise, quit smoking, quit drinking and eat nutritious food. But then, that is work and above all, we must avoid work!

[jwalsh07]

we can't just let tens of millions of people suffer and die because of inadequate access to health care either.

LOL.

[jwalsh07]

my undergrad degree is in political science and i am still waiting for you to make a real argument, instead of just insulting me. i don't think you can make a real argument.

You're degree is worthless. You have no understanding of the Constitution, you can't construct a proper sentence and you whine like my grandkids when they get tired.

I'm a blue collar guy and I've forgotten more Constitutional law than you'll ever know. Maybe you can get a refund.

[furball4paws]

rogerv started this thing, didn't say squat and disappeared. His motives are his own and we all had a good time, but do any of you think this was a bogus thread like me?

[pharmamom]

You didn't prove Medicaid/Medicare is cheaper. You ignored the point that the government does not pay the full cost of goods and services. They cheat, in other words. Thus, the extra costs are picked up by private payors and cash-paying citizens. When an orthopedist is paid less by the government to set a bone than the cost of the materials for the cast, that is not "savings," that is stealing. When a psychiatrist is paid less per hour by the government than a UAW worker, that is stealing. Rebut that and then we'll talk.

And here is a basic lesson for you: Corporations are not people. They have no assets. They do not get rich. The profit that is accrued in the course of people working under a corporate umbrella is given to people: employees in the form of wages and shareholders in the form of dividends. Money left over is used to invest in further research and development. Corporations are nothing more than groups of people organized to best produce a good or a service. Corporations are your friend. They probably employ you and a good many of your friends and acquaintances. You will probably retire with funds accrued through stock value and dividends paid by your friend the corporation.

Economic lesson number two: you cannot simply do away with an industry that employs millions of people. Where will those people work? Who will then pay for their benefits --or will we have to insure millions more through our taxes. Oh, but there will be less tax revenue, because those millions of people won't be paying any taxes, as they collect unemployment insurance. Which insurance, by the way, is paid by those evil corporations. No corporations, no unemployment insurance. Guess those millions of people are shit out of luck, eh?

[AppyPappy]

There is no Constitutional right to health care.

[pharmamom]

You are rude; you have been told by several of us to use your shift key. Or did your undergraduate professors not require that? Pre-existing conditions are not covered by insurance, but non-pre-existing conditions are. And most pre-existing conditions are only excluded for six months or so. I have worked in the industry and know this. And many pre-existing conditions are the result of failure to take care of the body God gave you. So now, after some fat slob has smoked his whole life, overeaten and never exercised, you want me to pay for his COPD, heart disease and stroke? Fat chance.

And by the way, there are a multitude of options for the truly indigent to get care. County hospitals provide practically free care. My company supplies many county health clinics with free medicine. My company provides the indigent with free meds.

You are talking about people who actually make money and could spend their own damn $5 to buy generic penicillin for that infection. But they don't. Why? Because people like you tell them they shouldn't have to.

[bill1952]

Tour? - Will then, have you been torn?

What else has been Torn?
Who is Rip Torn?
What is a Thorn?
When were you born?
What time is the morn?
Where is my corn?
Do you watch Porn?
Is this post well worn?
That's not an Orc horn.
For you, no scorn.
I am forlorn.
Can't stand Bjorn.

You are a liberal who believes in social safety nets and the limiting of free enterprise, which you name as :

"Taming power."

And I call: "Squashing free Enterprise and Capialism beneath a fascist boot heel."

In the name of your "concern?"

[backhoe]

Hummm...

The RED DOT on the Chart shows where you fit on the political map.

Your PERSONAL issues Score is 100%.
Your ECONOMIC issues Score is 100%.
(Please note: Scores falling on the Centrist border are counted as Centrist.)

Not surprising, I suppose- I started out with Barry Goldwater years ago and belong to the "just butt out & let me alone" school of conservatism.

[pharmamom]

ROFLMAOAPIMP

[backhoe]

[pharmamom]

By the way, have you ever had a job? Had to work for a living? Had kids to feed and clothe? Just how old are you? You sound like you just graduated, all new and shiny, and CLUELESS.

[Sunsong]

i never said there is. i said it's in our best interests as a nation to provide it.

So you are back under a new number?

You have yet to give any argument whatsoever as to why socialism would be good for America,or as you put it, "in our best interests".

Still waiting...

[nkycincinnatikid]

"Gee,I'm only wrong on 95% of what I believe?" You have higher marks in fact than most posters from Germany, and they are a fundementally intelligent bunch.

[backhoe]

Try this: