I'm a liberal and I'm here to learn

[rogerv]

Hi, gang,

I was a regular contributor to the Kerry Online Forum and am now a regular contributor to the Common Ground Common Sense forum. I am a liberal, but I'll be the first to admit, I don't have all the answers. In fact, many of hte questions that matter to me probably matter to you too. I'm concerned with questions about how to tame power, whether governmental or corporate. I'm concern with the rule of law and how we can get the powerful to take it seriously. I'm concerned with the erosion of civil liberties. And yes, I am concerned about some things you may associate with liberalism--social safety nets and taking care of those who fall through the institutional cracks.

I'm here because I think agreement is overrated and that critics can be your best friends: they keep you from getting sloppy or careless. At any rate, I think there are things I can learn from you. I don't expect you are all agreed on anything--I expect there is a lot of diversity of opinion here. If you are interested in what I have said over at Common Ground Common Sense, I'm using the same handle both places, and you should feel free to come over and look around.

Anyway, I'm new here. Anybody care to give me a tour?

[processing please hold]

All of you need to ask but one question. The one that cardina14, just asked.

Name one civil liberty that has been eroded?

He won't be able to answer it. He is all smoke and mirrors.

If he cannot name one, he is on a search and destroy mission as someone has already stated.

If he names ones, you can bet a dims mark is on it.

[MeekOneGOP]

Thanks.

See my comments just above (#513-14).

[iconoclast]

My general Freep observations in my short time here:

We generally give our country the benefit of the doubt. Conspiracy theorists better have more than just an unsustantiated opinion.

There is a strong Pro-Bush feeling and support but I feel there is wide disparity on a lot of idealogical issues that will make the next candidate in 2008 more contentious.

For what it is worth.

I have no doubt that your comments are in harmony with many, if not most, FReepers.

However I think it appropriate to post the following, if for no other reason, to show our newbie that we are not some sort of monolith.

1) My country Is never in doubt!
But, I maintain a healthy scepticism of government and politicians of ANY strip.

2) I thought Bush Sr. was a very poor President. I think even less of Jr., and if Prince Jeb is next, please keep all weapons away from me! ;o)

3) there is wide disparity on a lot of idealogical issues that will make the next candidate in 2008 more contentious

I'd be interested in seeing you expand on this statement, but I'm inclined to think that the decision will have been determined well ahead of time by the same big-money players that made the decision in 2000.

[zeugma]

What do you think of creating private property rights in outer space?

Now, that is an interesting question. I'm all for it! I've seen commentary that the "law of the sea" treaty, (sorry, but I can't remember the exact name of it), is aimed directly at your question. They seek to claim that mineral rights for places like, say open ocean, don't exist. If some smart feller decides to build an oil rig in the Atlantic Ocean, all the little pissant kleptocracies across the planet want a cut of the profits, because of some sense of ownership of natural resources by "all mankind". They seek this treaty as precident so they can pull off the same trick in space whenever someone is able to actually mount commercial ventures there.

Imagine, if you will, a company that figures out an economical way to either mine asteroids in situ, or move one into an earth orbit for mining. A good sized asteroid will contain more metal than has been mined in the history of mankind. Should those who took the risks to capture the resources of space be forced to share the wealth thus created? I think not, but there are a lot of socialists who believe otherwise.

[Mudboy Slim]

Hey JB!! How are you?

"I think it's a great tactic!"

I guess that's what I don't like about it, the fact that it's such an obvious "tactic", like something they'd teach in the Debate Club. AnnC's bright enuff that she doesn't need to resort to such skulduggery. As you point out, it sounds whiney.

FReegards...MUD

[rogerv]

I agree. I've just posted a similar sentiment at Common Ground. I worry that reframing can become just another way of being pushy.

[MeekOneGOP]

Thanks.

See my comments just above (#513-14).

[Mudboy Slim]

"...my new screenname!"

Naww, you can never change...your present screenname is perfect!!

FReegards...MUD

[trisham]

If this is a troll, he's coming in stealth mode. I am waiting for the Infra-Red signature...

**********

Stealth it is.

Meow.

[Ditto]

Between you and me, I'd like to keep it that way!

Maybe you can help me out. What's the difference between a "Civil" liberty and an inalienable right?

If a Civil liberty can be granted by the state, can the state also revoke that liberty?

[blackie]

Thanks for the info. :)

[sodpoodle]

Well done - and of course cumin would be the spice.

I just do this for the attention ;)

[iconoclast]

To MAWG: Thank you for your cogent reply.

To rogerv: Take it with a grain lot of salt.

[Redcloak]

One thing you're going to learn is that most of us have a radically different mindset than what you seem to hold. When you talk about people "who fall through the institutional cracks", we respond that the "cracks" are unimportant because the institution (welfare, medicare, or whatever) shouldn't exist in the first place. Liberals are used to debating the degree of spending on a particular program. We debate the very existence of the program. How much is spent on education, for example, isn't nearly so important as whether or not the Feds ought to be spending money on education at all.

[sodpoodle]

^5

[Juana la Loca]

What is it that you want to learn? Are you trying to determine what makes a conservative a conservative, or are you trying to see if there is a middle ground where liberals and conservatives can meet and compromose, or are you looking to convert or be converted?

[concretebob]

GMTA

Great

Minds

Think

Alike

[Earthdweller]

Ok..no posts from this newbie for over an hour..I'm outa here.

[proud American in Canada]

"I agree. I've just posted a similar sentiment at Common Ground"

What sentiment? I cut and paste your response to Shadow Ace because I wanted to mention, if you would do that, cut and paste the remark to which you're responding, it would be helpful. Otherwise people have to wade back through the thread to figure out what you're talking about.

By the way, welcome to FR. You can count me in as another former liberal. I came over from the dark side as a result of reading lots of newspapers and listening to all kinds of talk radio, especially Rush and Mike Rosen out of KOA in Denver. The irrationality of the left eventually became very clear to me.

I hope it will to you, too.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

Well then.. welcome. I am an ex-social worker and and ex- democrat and an ex-semi liberal. ( I was never all that liberal to begin with). I know everything about liberals that I ever wanted to know first hand. However- I guess, if you are as open minded as you say you are, then you may be around here long enough to learn a few things.

Behave yourself -because not many here are going to agree with you about many things.

Good luck.