The Pelagian Captivity of the Church

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals ^ | R. C. Sproul

[Gamecock]

For consideration and discussion

[Gamecock]

Ping

[Gamecock]

Very profound:

And as long as semi-Pelagianism -- which is simply a thinly veiled version of real Pelagianism at its core -- as long as it prevails in the Church, I don't know what's going to happen. But I know, however, what will not happen: there will not be a new Reformation. Until we humble ourselves and understand that no man is an island and that no man has an island of righteousness, that we are utterly dependent upon the unmixed grace of God for our salvation, we will not begin to rest upon grace and rejoice in the greatness of God's sovereignty, and we will not be rid of the pagan influence of humanism that exalts and puts man at the center of religion.

[jimtorr]

Beware! Spruill treads dangerously close to convincing people of the other "heresy" of modern Evangelical thought, Predestination.

Jesus, all the Apostles and all the Saints who wrote the scriptures agreed that the King of the Universe will not force his salvation on me.

I think Jesus and his Father give us the choice to reject his grace.

Didn't Jesus tell his followers to go throughout the world spreading the Good News, that all people might hear, and hearing, believe?

I hear nothing involuntary, there.

[jimtorr]

Ooops! It would help if I at least spelled the mans name correctly.

That's Sproul, not Spruill.

[massiveblob]

Every man has the potential for good, but the bonds of human sins and desires impede this. We can either accept God's grace and call or reject it. By accepting it those chains are broken.

[CCWoody]

***Spruill treads dangerously close to convincing people of the other "heresy" of modern Evangelical thought, Predestination.***

Once upon a time it was atomically understood that an Evangelical was a Predestinarian. Modern day Evangelicals are "evangelical" in name only. They resemble nothing of the great men who were slaughtered by droves by the enemies of the gospel.

This article, which I have read before, treads very close to me for I languish in an Arminian/ Pelagian sea of doctrinal garbage. Most of my church goers think that being evangelical is inviting someone to church, where they can go and get saved. Or praying for someone, which is absurd since, according to them, salvation is of the man making a free will decision. It mocks the gospel and the wonderful Predestinarian descriptor of the men of God who spread the gospel called Evangelicals.

Woody.

[Alex Murphy]

I don't know why, but every time I see the word "Pelagian" in print, I first read it as "Pegleg". No offense intended against you Pelagians out there. Put down those harpoons!

Bump for later reading

[RnMomof7]

I have read about half now and saving the rest for later.

This is an excellent overview of the problem in the church today. Sproul is an excellent teacher

[Wrigley]

He sure is.

There is such clear thinking and teaching there.

[ksen]

Beware! Spruill treads dangerously close to convincing people of the other "heresy" of modern Evangelical thought, Predestination.

The doctrine of Predestination is peppered throughout the Bible. Here a just a few of the samples:

Exo 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Moses was Predestined by God to show forth God's power throughout the earth.

Jos 11:20 For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses.

God Predestined the kings Joshua went against for destruction.

2Ki 19:25 Hast thou not heard long ago how I have done it, and of ancient times that I have formed it? now have I brought it to pass, that thou shouldest be to lay waste fenced cities into ruinous heaps.

The things God Predestinated were Predestinated long before they happened and God brings them to pass.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

It is God that chooses(Predestines) those who choose Him and God causes them to approach Him.

Ok, now what about the New Testament?

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

You notice here the Lord Jesus teaches only few are chosen, not "there are few who choose", but "there are few who are chosen."

Chosen by who? and chosen to what?

I say it is few are chosen by God to Salvation.

Ok, that's enough on that for now unless you'd like to continue. Predestination is a valid Biblical doctrine. Men can misconstrue it all they want, but it is there.

Jesus, all the Apostles and all the Saints who wrote the scriptures agreed that the King of the Universe will not force his salvation on me.

All the Calvinists here would affirm the same thing. God doesn't force anyone to do anything against their will.

I think Jesus and his Father give us the choice to reject his grace.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Those who reject the grace of God in Christ were never given to Christ by God the Father.

Didn't Jesus tell his followers to go throughout the world spreading the Good News, that all people might hear, and hearing, believe?

I hear nothing involuntary, there.

Neither does the Calvinist.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

If you walk like a Calvinist, talk like a Calvinist, then that makes you an Independent Fundamental Baptist?

BigMack

[ksen]

If you walk like a Calvinist, talk like a Calvinist, then that makes you an Independent Fundamental Baptist?

Yes.

Was there anything you disagreed with in my post to JimTorr?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Was there anything you disagreed with in my post to JimTorr?

Those who reject the grace of God in Christ were never given to Christ by God the Father.

BigMack

[ksen]

Those who reject the grace of God in Christ were never given to Christ by God the Father.

How else would you interpret John 6:37?

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

How else would you interpret John 6:37?

The ones that come thru free will are the ones, who the Father gives to Him.

BigMack

[ksen]

That turns the verse on its ear.

The verse says those who are called shall come, not that those who come are called. The emphasis is on the calling, and Him who calls, occuring before the coming.

[drstevej]

Father gives (present tense)
will come (future tense)

Makes the order clear.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

That turns the verse on its ear.

Says you. :)

The verse says those who are called shall come, not that those who come are called. The emphasis is on the calling, and Him who calls, occuring before the coming.

Did you forget the emphasis is also on "And him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" is also true, and "him that cometh to me" is of free will?

If your not starting to argue as a Calvinist, I'll give you and hour to draw a crowd and I'll kiss your @ss on the court house lawn.

BigMack

[xJones]

It never really escapes the core idea of the bondage of the soul, the captivity of the human heart to sin -- that it's not simply infected by a disease that may be fatal if left untreated, but it is mortal.

But it can't be mortal if one is predestined as an elect. So why worry if all the unelect are fooling themselves? They dare think they are saved? If they were born to go to hell, it makes no differance any way. Wave bye-bye and go on.