Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/9/02 to ???

[stlnative]

New thread...

[Utah Girl]

Soma (carisoprodol) is not a narcotic. It is a muscle relaxer, that really relaxes one well. Um, street junkies love the generic form of Soma, it is easily dissolved in a solution, and then can be injected, which gives them a better rush. There was one doctor in town who was known for prescribing carisoprodol for all types of pain, the addicts were lined up for miles to get scripts from him. He finally lost his license to practice medicine. (Note: I did NOT accuse Angela Ricci of injecting the stuff, just this is my work experience with the drug.) Oh, and carisoprodol in conjunction with narcotics has a synergistic effect, which means they give a higher "high" taken together. Now I'll quit blathering on...

[landerwy]

I believe that they have all of Ricci's bank accounts, phone records, and all other records to track down such a person or persons that you speak of.

They have done interviews with anyone who has had anything to do with him; that they know of. They have been tracking down leads of sightings of him. They have done are doing the same with some of his closer acquaintenances.

What I meant to say was you know who would be implicated under your scenario. All indications I have is that person would not be the source of the illegal substance.

[landerwy]

"They have done are doing the same with some of his closer acquaintenances."

Oops!

Should read: They have done or are doing the same with some of his closer acquaintenances.

[Sherlock]

Soma

If Angela was using it 'for a high' she was taking such a high dosage that when she went out she was unwakable, or 'somatosed' in the joking phraseology of Richard Ricci and Angela's good friend Andy Thurber.

[Utah Girl]

It was truly amazing to see the amount of drugs people were able to take. There was one woman who could go through 60 Tylenol #4 in 3 days (60 mg codeine with 325 mg acetaminophen.) They just keep upping the dosage to get that same high.

[Devil_Anse]

Varina, you have hit the nail on the head.

No, I'm not agreeing with you that Sherlock "claims to possess so much moral superiority." What I mean is, you brought up "claims of moral superiority."

Can't you see??? It is YOU who consistently imply that most of the rest of us are lacking in the morals department. If anyone is claiming, or implying a claim to, moral superiority around here, in my opinion it is you!!

[Devil_Anse]

Agreed. Varina does indeed seem to gravitate towards any viewpoint which opposes that of the majority.

I still don't understand how she can almost (exaggerating here) dog-cuss poor old Thurber, while claiming an almost Joan-of-Arc-like mystique for Angela, an associate of Thurber's who is cut from the same cloth as Thurber.

[Devil_Anse]

"Now I'll quit blathering on..."

Not blathering--not at all! I assume the people around here are law-abiding, etc. Such people don't always realize just how many ways there are to turn a legally permissible situation into a criminal enterprise or a bonanza for illegal conduct. You explanation of how junkies might use Soma is an excellent illustration how someone who appears to technically not be breaking the law can still be engaging in horribly destructive behavior.

So a person can get an extra-"good" high by combining Soma and narcotics? How about that! IMO, we are all just much too naive about the possibilities of the Riccis' lifestyle. Thank you for counteracting some of this naivete.

[Devil_Anse]

Okay, I'm dropping that aspect of my theory.

But, still, there are conflicting reports about how that jeep left Neth's on May 30. When I think of the reports that say it was "surreptitiously" taken, I still can't help but think of repossession.

Also, isn't it quite likely that Ricci was using at the time of his death? I think so. If you're going to shoot up, it is a fact that you've got to get the heroin somewhere! And it is a fact that people don't give away heroin for free! The guy I wondered about isn't the dealer, okay, but SOMEONE is, and that person could have been stiffed by Ricci and have taken the jeep as payment for the debt.

[Utah Girl]

Ugh, I know too much about drugs. I saw too much in the pharmacy, people are in chronic pain and do need help. But chronic narcotic use is not the way to go. There are many other options: biofeedback, hot baths/showers, etc. There are even pain clinics set up now to help people deal with chronic pain.

[sandude]

No, maybe he was along for the abduction. But not in the white jeep. Maybe....in a blue SUV?

Tell me what's illogical!

For starters lets look at your statement above. Why would you use the blue van if you were going to grab Elizabeth when you had access to a vehicle that already had her DNA in it? The Jeep was the perfect vehicle for the job. A halfway competent attorney could easily explain any trace DNA evidence found in the Jeep. In fact I don’t think you could find a district attorney who would indict Ricci based on trace DNA in this because it would be an un-winnable case. So if Richard and/or Angela were involved in anyway at all then you can bet the farm that the Jeep was used to transport Elizabeth. Using anything else would be illogical.

I'll tell you right now, ONE thing that's illogical: that people would leave a jeep that is capable of doing 500-1000 miles, in the shop, for extended periods, when the stated repairs could be done in a day or two!

Let me start with a premise that this was a kidnapping for ransom situation and that the perpetrators plan was to wait several weeks to make their demand to the family. There is also a possibility that the plan may have been to eventually return Elizabeth to her family.

I think that the idea was to provide an alibi for the Jeep in case one was needed. This part of the plan backfired badly but if Mary Katherine had remained asleep then it might have worked. If the Smarts had awoken at their usual time and noticed Elizabeth gone it would have taken a lot more time for them to notify the authorities. Seeing the cut screen would have raised some suspicions but they still would have looked around the neighborhood and called all of Elizabeth’s friends to see if they could locate her. It may have taken half a day before a patrolman arrived on the scene. His first thoughts would be that she’d runaway regardless of what the family told him.

Detectives would eventually get involved but it might have taken 2 or 3 days, possibly more. If no foul play is suspected then an adult usually has to be missing for 72 hours before an earnest investigation begins. That time is probably less for a child so perhaps the detectives would have talked with the Smarts the next day, it doesn’t really matter that much. Their first idea beyond the runaway angle would have been a family abduction because that is statistically where the odds lie. Next they would have looked at friends, neighbors, teachers, etc. to see if anyone of them had a fixation on Elizabeth or something shady in their background. They would have also looked at all the known sex offenders in the area to see if one of them were involved. Eventually they would have looked at other people on the fringes of the family. Richard would have fit into this fringe group. With no ransom demand there would have been no FBI involvement and probably only 1 or 2 detectives working this case. By the time they got around to Richard the Jeep would have been safely back home and they would have no reason to suspect him anyway because he had no record of any sexual crimes. At some point the detectives would have chalked the crime up to a random perpetrator and the case would have been declared cold.

With all this in mind let me propose a scenario in which Mary Katherine doesn’t wake up. I’ll modify my cabin model to include the possibility that Elizabeth was going to be returned to her family upon receipt of the ransom. You Ricci lovers should like this one because it gives Richard some wiggle room. I’m not going to give Angela any because she insinuated the other night on LKL that she in fact did call Moul’s garage. For those of you who think Angie is really angelic you can substitute “mystery woman” wherever you see her name.

The Jeep is put in the shop to repair the fuel pump (possibly induced failure) and other items that needed attention. They tell Moul to get the car running first and that they will let him know later whether or not they can afford to do the other work. Later Angela makes the call telling Moul that they in fact want the other work done but that an emergency need has come up and they need the Jeep. She also tells him they can’t pay until the other work is done because payday won’t be until the 1st. Moul agrees because they have paid their bills in the past.

Somebody, not Rick, removes the Jeep from Moul’s lot without being seen and drives it to the remote cabin site. The abductor makes the trip to Federal Heights a few days later and discovers there are a bunch of cars around the house due to Lois’ father passing away. The plan is put on hold. Finally on the 5th the coast is clear and the perpetrator grabs Elizabeth, puts her in the Jeep and subdues her for the trip back to the woods.

Elizabeth is to be held in the cabin blindfolded until the investigation goes cold. Somebody else, perhaps the abductors girlfriend or wife, is at the cabin to help take care of her. In this scenario the Jeep would have been returned to Moul’s garage during the afternoon of the 5th of June by the perp claiming he was dropping it off for the Ricci’s. It also could have been returned surreptitiously to give total deniability to those involved. Once the investigation has gone cold then the Smarts would be sent a picture of Elizabeth holding a current newspaper to show them that she was still alive. The note would include a threat that if they contacted LE in anyway to report this that their beautiful daughter would be killed. The thinking of the conspirators would be that the Smarts would not take the chance and would pay the ransom. After the ransom was collected and they were sure that LE was not involved then they would release Elizabeth somewhere near a small town far away from the remote cabin.

Once Elizabeth was home then of course the Smarts would contact LE. The investigation would surely lead to Ricci again. His alibi would be tighter than a drum. Elizabeth would describe what she remembered. The only thing she might have seen was a white Jeep prior to being subdued. She would remember Richard from his day’s as their handyman and would inform LE that he was not the kidnapper. As far as the Ricci’s are concerned the investigation ends there.

Of course Mary Katherine changed the dynamic. The conspirators had to go into cover-up mode, which of course included silencing Elizabeth. Comments and flames accepted.

[Sherlock]

But, still, there are conflicting reports about how that jeep left Neth's on May 30. When I think of the reports that say it was "surreptitiously" taken, I still can't help but think of repossession.

I don't think it's logical anyone could have taken the Jeep on May 30 without the Riccis' knowledge. Angela admits now she called on May 30 and checked on the white Jeep with the electronic fuel pump. Does it make sense she would have made this call then forgotten about the Jeep for 2 weeks while in the meantime someone else came in May 30 and stole it and then returned it in 10 days? This would take a stretch even of varina's thinking.

[landerwy]

I believe that there is a drug connection to the whole Ricci affair. Whether or not it has a connection to ES I don't know yet.

Why not force Ricci to get the jeep out of the shop for whatever purpose, i.e. kidanpping, "foreclosure" on jeep, etc. If he owed the wrong person money he could be coerced to do a number of things, don't you think?

[Sherlock]

She also tells him they can’t pay until the other work is done because payday won’t be until the 1st.

Yes, by Angela calling and saying they were going to take it Moul would not have gotten as excited as he would have if it had just disappeared with no warning. However, if someone came and took the Jeep without Moul seeing them you would think Moul would have called the Ricci's about it, but maybe he was intimidated by Ricci. However, if they went to all this effort to conceal who took the Jeep, why did Richard return it in broad daylight in front of God and everybody with all the evidence and his accomplice across the street. He must have really thought Moul was stupid for one thing.

I think the scenario is generally good. I think the kidnapper may have used his white or silver Honda but then met someone else in a remote site up in the hills above Tomahawk and there blindfolded Liz then walked her back to where the Jeep was hidden and put her in. Her scream may have been just before they gagged her and she got one chance to scream for help.

[lakey]

Oh, it appears to me that you're one of the ego-padding people who want the Riccis to fit a template, an artificial template, at that.

What I have maintained is that, without evidence (and, presumably, you will admit that we posters have little evidence), planting ideas of guilt regarding Richard as the kidnapper (with Angela as an accomplice), is a rather shallow and mean-spirited pursuit.

There is every reason to believe that plenty of dumb mistakes have been made by LE. Therefore, it is difficult to think anyone would "give them a pass" on what they have related as being Ricci's involvement....alas, if only that dreadful Richard would have spoken up before he died, because now we can't solve this case. /end sarcasm

At best, much of what has been fed to us from the beginning by LE, the Smarts, and media is often contradictory and/or misleading. More than three months later, nothing they have done or said has zeroed in on who the kidnapper is, and/or where to find Elizabeth!

That is everyone's goal isn't it? Well, maybe not.

Sincerity becomes an issue when one looks back. If LE & the Smarts believed the public could help locate/recognize Elizabeth's abductor through media, there was every reason to publish a composite sketch - whether Mary Katherine saw his face or not....his general stature, clothing, a description of his walk, was he left or right-handed, etc. And we're still waiting.

Ed Smart says he feels his daughter is still alive. So do I. Why? For the simple reasons stated above, and that tells me he knows very well who the abductor is. And it wasn't Ricci!

[Devil_Anse]

You forgot the part where the kidnappers put Elizabeth in a little room with just a videocam, to make a video of her to convince the Smarts she is alive--and Elizabeth says their "script" as required, but also blinks her eyes in Morse code, conveying a secret message that "My location is at [fill in address] and there are [fill in number] kidnappers involved, and their names seem to be [fill in names she's overheard.]"

Seriously, though, of course Ricci could have been involved, and many other aspects of what you visualize could be right on target. But while we have thought of the jeep/DNA angle, I wonder if Ricci would have thought of this beforehand. Do you realize how many people out there still have no idea that there is such a thing as DNA, much less that DNA profiles are now available? In spite of his much-lauded horticulture "degree," I wonder if Ricci was as capable as an educated person, say an engineer, of doing such detailed planning in advance. When you say, "using anything else [besides the white jeep] would be illogical," that is Sandude the clear-thinking engineer talking--not some druggie criminal who recklessly breaks into houses at night while people are right there.

As for their keeping her alive for several weeks, I can't imagine more than maybe 1% of kidnappers considering such a thing. Judging by past cases, I think the death of the kidnapee would be considered only a very minor setback to any average kidnapper's plan to request ransom. Look at the Lindbergh case. The baby fell and died b/f they even got him down the ladder--yet the kidnapper brazenly and successfully went right ahead and demanded ransom.

Your conjecture that if no one had seen the abduction, police would have probably been inclined to consider runaway first, is probably correct. However, since the Adam Walsh case, I think the police are more inclined to set up parallel investigations in a situation like this--runaway, AND possible abduction. They certainly wouldn't wait the 72 hours which is oft-cited for adult disappearances. As for FBI involvement, not sure but, seems to me the FBI can find an excuse to come in if they want to. They might say, "good possibility of state lines being crossed," or something. If we don't know precisely the rules that govern FBI involvement, you can bet the kidnapper didn't know either--unless some cop-gone-bad was involved.

One thing I think you should keep in mind, when you ask, "how would anyone be so stupid as to do it that way," you should remember, CRIMINALS NEVER THINK THEY ARE GOING TO GET CAUGHT. If they really sat down and thought of all the things that might go wrong, and penalties, etc., they'd not do most of these crimes. That's not the kind of people they are, IMO.

One thing I think any criminal WOULD think of, is, he would think: "If I ever let this girl get free and get back to her family and the police, chances are very good that something she tells them is gonna get me caught." How often do you hear of someone being kidnapped, ransom being paid as per instructions, the victim being returned, and everyone just living happily ever after, dropping the whole matter? It doesn't happen, and anyone, including a kidnapper, knows that.

"bunch of cars around the house b/c Lois' father had passed away"

I don't know, I really think the bunch of cars would have been around the elder Francoms' home--not around the decedent's daughter's home. At least, that's been my experience. Remember there were numerous children of Myron in the area--Lois's would not necessarily have been hotel-central for everyone coming to the funeral. I agree, however, that it is tempting to think that the funeral slowed down the plan, because of how the sequence of events did turn out.

"[Jeep] also could have been returned surreptitiously to give total deniability to those involved."

They wouldn't want to return it TOO surreptitiously--if Neth's didn't realize it was back for a day or two, that wouldn't give the jeep an alibi for those days. I mean, someone would have to KNOW it was a Neth's, in order to vouch for its whereabouts. Plus, as Sherlock pointed out, we know Ricci returned the jeep "in front of God and everybody."

For an easier ransom kidnapping, why not choose Mary K. or little 3-yr-old William?

I agree with you in considering Angela as fully capable of lying about anything. You can generally tell when she's lying, usually it's when her lips are moving.

Somewhere, someone commented that maybe Ricci thought Moul was stupid. I agree with that.

[Devil_Anse]

"I don't think it's logical anyone could have taken the jeep on May 30 without the Riccis' knowledge." I agree with you, except I would state that last phrase as "without the Riccis' knowledge OR ACQUIESCENCE."

Sure, the fact that NOBODY says Neth's got any calls asking about Ricci's jeep, during the period of May 30--June 8, suggests that the Riccis knew darn well the jeep wasn't at Moul's during those days.

[Devil_Anse]

"I believe that there is a drug connection to the whole Ricci affair. Whether or not it has a connection to ES I don't know yet."

I agree with you.

"If he owed the wrong person money he could be coerced to do a number of things, don't you think?"

THIS is a great point. Who knows what corners Ricci had got himself into, what with being on parole and worried about going back to jail, and being a junkie?

Just as pure speculation, maybe Ricci was forced to take part in someone else's drug operation, in return for being supplied with drugs. There are methamphetamine labs. There are marijuana-growing operations. There is heroin transport. Who knows?

Remember that guy, Richard Dean Miller, that Scaredkat brought up? Scaredkat maintains that this man knew Ricci. (The guy is listed as a sex offender, and looks kind of like Ricci with short hair.) I don't know if it was the same Richard Dean Miller, but there is a federal criminal appeals decision published on the web that describes the conviction, and the overturning of the conviction on procedural grounds, of a Richard Dean Miller--for involvement with methamphetamine production.

[Devil_Anse]

"Without evidence (and presumably, you will admit that we posters have little evidence), planting ideas of guilt regarding Richard as the kidnapper (with Angela as an accomplice), is a rather shallow and mean-spirited pursuit."

Later you said: "That tells me [Ed] knows very well who the abductor is."

If Ed does know, then that means Ed has knowledge of the crime which he is hiding, doesn't it? And isn't doing THAT a crime?

Let's try your first statement again, with just a minor change:

"Without evidence (and, presumably, you will admit that we posters have little evidence), planting ideas of guilt regarding ED as ONE OF THE CRIMINALS, is a rather shallow and mean-spirited pursuit."

Oh, look, it works with the minor change, too!

Yes, Lakey, it's all meanness to sit around conjecturing w/o evidence. So we're all a bunch of meanies for having this hobby. It's wrong to make up what-ifs, b/c that is "planting ideas of guilt." So we should all just go home and stop posting.

"There is every reason to believe that plenty of dumb mistakes have been made by LE."

Maybe so. But since "we posters have little evidence" of that, either, isn't it rather shallow and meanspirited to "plant ideas of guilt" on the part of LE?

Nobody is suggesting that Ricci had ANY obligation to say ONE WORD to the police--ever. In fact, I have repeatedly suggested the opposite.

"At best, much of what has been fed to us from the beginning by LE, the Smarts, and media is often contradictory and misleading." I agree with this, but in fairness, you should also say that WHAT HAS BEEN FED TO US BY ANGELA HAS ALSO OFTEN BEEN CONTRADICTORY AND MISLEADING.

LE had a suspect. You criticize them for that. If they had never named a single "person of interest," you'd have been raving on about how "they haven't even once come up with a possible perpetrator!"

[Jolly Green]

This is about as good an analysis as I have seen. Good work!