Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/9/02 to ???

[stlnative]

New thread...

[UCANSEE2]

I see you got on this thread. I will check the other.

[UCANSEE2]

I am just getting starting really, learning about Elizabeth's case, so be patient with me. I have much to learn. Thank you for originating this thread. I hear from good sources that you are the one to work with. Utah Girl also seems knowledgable.

[scaredkat]

Chief are you there?

[Palladin]

Thanks, brigette. You are a great archivist.

Bookmarking for future reference.

[Devil_Anse]

Hi, scaredkat. What's up tonight?

I'm not Chief! Honest!

[Devil_Anse]

Thanks, UCANSEE2.

Anything you want to know about this case, people here will tell you. You may find some disagreement on certain points, however, but believe me, you'll hear all sides.

[scaredkat]

It just seems alittle quite the last few days. everyone busy or doing research?

If you are the chief, fess up I need a key.

[trussell]

place marker

[ChocChipCookie]

self-ping

[Devil_Anse]

First, I agree that Ricci might have been muddy when at Moul's on June 8 b/c he'd gotten muddy at work--considering the type of work. But he wouldn't have gotten his jeep muddy at work, b/c I remember Mr. Mitchell said on TV that Ricci's job description was for work only at the nursery location, not out in the field or on errands.

I also agree with your assertion that the police must know of some time/opportunity when the large mileage could have been racked up, or they wouldn't have kept after Ricci for an explanation--they would have looked for some other possibility, presumably. You know, in spite of his day job, it's not unheard of for a guy who's done burglaries in the past to be going out at night. I guess he wouldn't get much sleep, but then he could have been "speeding" or whatever. That's strictly conjecture, of course.

What you said about the police being suspicious as to why he wouldn't know his own jeep was missing, and why he or his wife didn't seem to complain to Neth's about this "borrowing," is also accurate, IMO. Angela's and Richard's previous apparent lack of curiosity about the jeep absence is a red flag. The police could be expected to notice such flagrant absurdities.

I almost think the bit with the "stolen/lost keys" is not worth wasting time on, but some people buy it. I consider you rational for questioning it, though, considering that it just doesn't make sense that a guy would steal the keys in April, and know all about exactly when the jeep was in the shop in May-June. Seems this key-thief acquaintance would find it much easier to take the jeep from Richard's workplace or home or whatever.

Yes, if he had a place where he hid the jeep, chances are that's also a place Elizabeth was--if Ricci did it. How many great hiding places can one man have? So, back to the white mud...

I didn't think it was likely that a friend could have borrowed Rick's jeep and then used it for a crime, but now I do think it possible. In the caper where Ricci was convicted of receiving stolen food from the food bank, it was said he'd received this stolen food as a payment b/c the friend who stole it had borrowed Rick's vehicle to do the theft (or burglary.)

[Devil_Anse]

Sandude, a word about Ricci's failure to ever explain to the police where the jeep was, and what we should make of that, IMO.

In spite of our suspicions of Ricci, it is plausible that he steadfastly refused to clear up the jeep-whereabouts matter for a reason other than that he was involved in Elizabeth's abduction. Ricci already knew he was going back to serve the sentence he'd been paroled on. (The one where he'd been granted parole in Sept. 2000.) He'd also have known about at least some of the possible new charges coming down: bank robbery, Adams burglary, Smart theft.

The police offered him immunity for crimes committed during the time the jeep was missing, if he'd just say where it was. It is possible that he'd committed no crimes while the jeep was missing, so maybe he and his attorney didn't think it worthwhile to offer this valuable info (valuable info=the details of the jeep's whereabouts) until they could get something real in return. If he trades info for immunity from crimes, but he knows there were no crimes, what has he gained? Immunity from prosecution for his activities during a period during which he committed no crimes is not much.

He and his lawyer knew he had something of value that the police wanted. Why not save that something of value to trade for something that was of value to Ricci? Why not wait till the prosecution of the bank robbery, etc., was in full swing, and then offer his valuable info of telling the whereabouts of the jeep. At that point, law enforcement would finally have something of value to HIM: possible lenient sentencing on the new charges.

Above all, Ricci didn't have to tell the police anything--and his silence and refusal to tell them anything could NEVER be used against him in any criminal court proceeding whatsoever. It was up to him and his lawyer to get as much value for his "currency" as possible. As with the stock market, sometimes you have to wait in order to get the most possible gain.

About the possibility of their transferring a body, I'd think they'd have sought to make it so they had to transfer the body as few times as possible, b/c of course every time they moved it, they were taking a huge risk.

[scaredkat]

Yes, if he had a place where he hid the jeep, chances are that's also a place Elizabeth was--if Ricci did it. How many great hiding places can one man have? So, back to the white mud...

I didn't think it was likely that a friend could have borrowed Rick's jeep and then used it for a crime, but now I do think it possible. In the caper where Ricci was convicted of receiving stolen food from the food bank, it was said he'd received this stolen food as a payment b/c the friend who stole it had borrowed Rick's vehicle to do the theft (or burglary.)

Now your thinking. Now think, were would you hid a jeep for awhile when you get that, youll be on the same track I am. Also the miles. I did a road trip one day with my slueth close on and I rack up 580 miles and I didnt go anywhere outside of the wasatch area.

[scaredkat]

slueth clothes on

ARE WE ON THIS ONE OR THE OTHER ONE??

[Devil_Anse]

Thank you very much, scaredkat, for the interesting info on the other missing girls. About that Christina Weight girl, is it Weight, or Wright or Waite? Is that the one where she lived with her grandparents, and they lived next to their auto repair shop, and she was possibly out in the shop using the computer, the night she disappeared?

As for that Rettenberger guy, he does indeed have bangs like the hiker's sketch, and he is dark-complected, as the hikers described. But seems to me they said the pig-roast guy was older? Is Farmington (location of the story about Rettenberger) near Manti, where the pig-roast guy was seen? (Did you know Bret Edmunds had a conviction for burglarizing a loan company in Manti and stealing checks from it? But the pig-roast guy sure isn't Edmunds, Edmunds would be the pig, he's so big!)

About that girl you said was missing in WV, you said it was Elizabeth Burd? Here's what I read on the episode about the blue van in Nebraska, with the girl crying, remember that from July? I read that those people in that van ended up in Massachusetts, and the blond girl who was crying turned out to be a 21-yr-old named Elizabeth Byrd. She and her male friends liked to travel the country going to concerts, and she was crying b/c another friend had been arrested in CO and she missed him. Are you sure there's a separate girl named Elizabeth Burd or Byrd, missing from WV? I always wondered why Edmunds ended up in WV, too.

About Ricci hiding the jeep, wonder how he'd get to and from its location? Strange, seems an inconvenient thing for a person to do.

[Devil_Anse]

I guess we're on Brigette's Sept. 9--? thread. They seem to archive the threads when they get a high number of posts, so I guess we should move over here.

[Devil_Anse]

Well, call me Chef Menteur, then!

[scaredkat]

http://www.wvstatepolice.com/children/burd.htm
check it out. I cant believe I found it so fast for you. usually I have to do some searching.

I wonder if thats why they think Elizabeth Smart has probably changed and is apart of the group, The police stated something like that -like the pattie hurst thing-

Maybe they are onto something with this.

Is Farmington (location of the story about Rettenberger) near Manti,
farmington is north from sl towards ogden.

where the pig-roast guy was seen? (Did you know Bret Edmunds had a conviction for burglarizing a loan company in Manti and stealing checks from it?

Oh my heck!! I didnt know that, Now answer this when does coinsident not coinsidents anymore??? Please answer this if you know.

I think I just got scared again.

[TXLady]

Ping

[sandude]

a word about Ricci's failure to ever explain to the police where the jeep was, and what we should make of that

You mention the possibility that no crimes were committed during the Jeeps absence. Richard was supposedly very saddened by the abduction of Elizabeth because he liked Ed so much. He felt like the police were wasting their time investigating him and the Jeep and hoped they would marshal their resources in another direction. He was in isolation in the prison for his own safety. He was eating sack lunches twice a day. He could not receive visits from Angela or anyone else. He was constantly mentioned in news articles placing a cloud of suspicion over him. As hot as this case was I’m sure his lawyer could have easily gotten a plea bargain for simply clearing up the questions around the Jeep. If no crimes were really committed then it makes no sense for him not to clear the matter up.

What if unrelated crimes were committed by someone else using the Jeep and Richard knew about it? For the same reasons as above he would clear the matter up. He also could have been able to come up with an alibi for the Jeep. Example: somebody took it without his knowledge and dropped it off at the trailer park during the night. He was simply returning it to Moul so that the work could be completed. If the police ever discovered the unrelated crimes then he could tell his story and hope he had an alibi for the time the crimes were committed.

What if Richard had used the Jeep in the commission of some unrelated crime? There was always the offer of immunity for anything like this. He’d still been in trouble but his life would have been much less complicated without the cloud of Elizabeth’s kidnapping hanging over him.

What if someone else abducted Elizabeth using the Jeep without Richards’s knowledge? Not likely because the abductor would have needed access and a layout for the Smart home. If it was some kind of a frame then why did Ricci return the Jeep himself and then lie about it? Once again his lawyer could have and would have cut a deal in a New York minute on this. LE would have had no reason whatsoever to withhold a deal unless they had good evidence tying Richard to the kidnapping.

There is really only one conclusion that can be reached about the Jeep. It was involved in the abduction. Richard could not admit that it had been in his possession because it would have forced him to give up his accomplice and explain the mileage and where it had been to get so muddy. Doing that could have brought him a death penalty. There was also the possibility that there was some telltale evidence in the Jeep like a fiber from Elizabeth’s red pajamas. Stonewalling was his only play.

Add to all of this the failed lie detector test, the surprise confession to theft and burglary charges and the holes in his alibi. It doesn’t paint a pretty picture for Richard no matter how you cut it. And for anybody who wants to believe Angela’s version of events I’ve got some hip waders for them.