Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
So, does the ring always corrupt in a dark lord sort of way, or is Overtaxed more correct when she said that it corrupts according to one's ambition.
Yes, of all those who came in range of the Ring only the Great Powers, Gandalf, Galadriel, and possibly Elrond, could have mastered it and become another Sauron, but all three had the ability to refuse it. I disagree that Aragorn could have mastered it, the palantir was an instrument, but the Ring, as has been said, was associated with Sauron, and only the Great Ones could have gained and kept control of it.
By the way, I'm doing the Smeagol Victory Dance - I got 700!
Now, I don't know what would have happened if you gave the ring to Paladin, Thain of the Shire. A Took as a dark lord? Hmmmm....
Congratulations, who do you suppose will get #4100 this time? For that matter who got it last time? My guess is that it will happen in the second half of April!!
How can you not love the little guy? I mean, he had in his possession something that would make him master of the universe... and all he wants is some fish. Fresh fish... BTW don't you just love his song in The Two Towers. Fish... the ultimate drug.
Didn't Gandalf eventually decide that it was a higher power, and not just his liking for them, that brought him to associate with the Hobbits, because their simplicity and lack of ambition made them the only possibility on Middle Earth to dispose of the Ring. We know what would have happened if a man, elf, or Wizard had gotten their hands on it, and the dwarves would have used it to get all of the precious metals and jewels on earth into their possession.
I'm not sure how much of the ring's will was the ring's and how much was Sauron's. If Aragorn had the ring, would the ring's will be that of Sauron, Aragorn, or would it just weaken and all "wills" are belong to the current master. As long as the ring existed, Sauron would be lurking around somewhere. About the only thing I'm sure of is that if Aragorn had the ring, he also had the strength to become The Dark Lord of Middle Earth.
I think the ring represents power and the absolute corruption of absolute power. Souron was evil to begin with thus he embued the ring with evil in it's creation.
It appears that the ones he most feared using it were first Elrond and Galadriel (Elves) then Sarouman and Gandalf (Wizards) and finally Aragorn, Denethor, Boramir and Faramir (Nemenorian blood line). The Elves and Wizards could perhaps have supplanted him but would have eventually become as evil as he; and they knew it. That is why Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf refused to take it up.
Sarouman by that time, had already been corrupted, knew what he would become and didn't care. Sauron already had a head start on Sauroman and Denethor and no doubt was confident he could wrest the ring from them and Boromir as well. Aragorn and Faramir would have given him some difficulty and cost him a great deal more in conquering all of Middle-Earth but would have eventually succombed.
The ring bearers, on the other hand, had no real appetite for power, and though somewhat resistant to that lure, nevertheless under his influence would simply have delivered it to him.
Anyway,,, that's my take on it,,, for what its worth.
The world would never know! :D
One of the reasons to force yourself to read the Silmarillion (it took me two or three tries myself) is to understand that even though LOTR does not mention God directly, the WOTR is just one more refrain in the Great Music of Illuvatar (God.) So, we can reasonably assume that Gandalf's association with Hobbits is not an accident. It is part of a greater plan, as Gandalf himself intimates about many things which happen in both "The Hobbit" and LOTR.
You mean, like if I declared myself Global Overlord, but just didn't bother to tell anyone about it?
OT, I'm going to work on the Green Dragon thing this afternoon, and I won't be around until after 8 eastern to talk - class tonight. I'll try to leave the chapter at the Yahoo thread if you want to look at it later.
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