Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
I thought of something driving to work this morning. Sauron made the ring to control all the others and bring Middle Earth into darkness.
Isildur knew full well what the ring was, but chose not to destroy it. He hope to harness it's power so that his kingdom will not fall. Isildur was killed at the massacre of the Gladden Fields.
Deagol found the ring and was murdered by Smeagol. Smeagol used the ring for mischief until he was driven out of the village. He went under the Misty Mountains and used the ring to turn invisible and fish in the lake and pick off a few unsuspecting little orcs.
Bilbo found the ring and in the Hobbit used the ring to turn invisible. In the Shire, he used the ring to turn invisible and hide from Sacksville-Bagginses. Frodo inherited the ring and used it a small number of times (once by accident in the Prancing Pony) and twice turn invisible and escape. (Weathertop and Boromir).
Boromir lusted for the ring because his aim was to use the ring much like Isildur did.
Galadriel lusted for the ring because she had rebelled against the Eldars and went into exile. She determined that she would set herself up as Queen of Middle Earth. She was forbidden passage to the Gray Havens until she repented. When she refused the ring and refused to act on her "rebellion", then she rewarded and allowed to come to the Gray Havens.
Sam used the ring to hide from Orcs and follow them after they found Frodo in Shelob's cave.
Frodo, at last claimed the ring on Mt. Doom put it on and disappeared.
Now, there is a brief history of the ring.
Okay... why bring all that up? I wonder if the ring can only corrupt you if you know what you have in your possession.
The one who had the ring the longest was Smeagol. A simple Stoor Hobbit. And even he doesn't wish to become a dark lord. In the Two Towers he holds a conversation with himself and says... I will keep the ring and become Lord Smeagol... Gollum the great. Then he listed what he would do... he would repay Sauron for torturing him, and Sam for being rude to him, but to Smeagol, the main benefit of the ring was to provide him fresh fish from the ocean three times a day. Smeagol doesn't want the ring for power. He wants the ring because it is precious to him and by it he gets food.
The danger of the ring was that it would get to Sauron who would know how to use it. I wonder if any of the above-mentioned (with the exception of Galadriel) would ever be so corrupted that they would have replaced Sauron as the Dark Lord.
The ring tempted Deagol, Smeago, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam according to their own little ambitions and I can see where the ring would eventually hold out that "Ruler of Middle Earth" carrot. But it seems to me that they wouldn't have the strength to achieve "Dark Lord" status and would all end up shriveled like Gollum.
I don't remember if this is from the movie or the books--but somewhere the idea is expressed that the Ring and Sauron are really one, so it is ultimately impossible for another to wield the full power of the Ring for their own ends. Of course, this poses the question, why would Sauron then be afraid of someone trying to use the Ring against him? This idea may have come more from the movie than the book.
I am confident that either LOTR or the Silmarillion say that Sauron poured much of his own power into the One Ring. This is why he is destroyed when the Ring is destroyed. I believe the language Gandalf uses is that Sauron's fate is "bound up" with that of the Ring.
What exactly would happen should someone else try to use the Ring is less clear, except that it would be bad.
Sauron was afraid that Aragon would use the ring against him. And Aragorn had the strength to do it too. After all, he did win the palantir battle.
Sauron was afraid that Aragon would use the ring against him. And Aragorn had the strength to do it too. After all, he did win the palantir battle.
My guess is that the Ring would have eventually betrayed and/or abandoned Lord Smeagol, just as it once betrayed Isildur and later abandoned Gollumn the first time. The opportunity would have a risen for the Ring to enslave someone of greater power, and that would have been the end of the Imperial Fish Fest.
"Sometimes you want to go where everybody knows your name, and they're always glad you came."
I'm enjoying reading these threads. I'm gonna have to re-read the trilogy with some of all y'all's thought in mind!
But, remember--Sauron's strength was diminished by the lack of the Ring. If Aragorn had come under the influence of the Ring, he could not have resisted its corrupting influence. Once the Ring had him in its power, would it have been satisfied with a mere man, or would it have bent its will to be reunited with its true master?
Sauron bested the Numenoreans at the hight of their glory (prior to the destruction of his attractive form, and before the creation of the One Ring, I believe.)Much of his power was then placed in the Ring. Once Aragorn fell under it's spell, would he have fared any better than his ancestors in resisting the seduction of Sauron?
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